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  1. #31
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Lol, so this thread starter from the "size" conversation.

    I agree with Jennifer's first post.

  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I suppose that would be true for someone who's totally unaware of his own feelings, but I think this is pretty rare even for NTs.

    I don't see that I have to concede anything. I'd say I'm pretty aware of my own feelings most of the time; they're just not as strong a force in my decision-making as impersonal reasoning.
    Hee. I went through that exact phase (said/wrote exactly the same things) in my early/mid-20's... until it was beaten out of me. Even my best friend, an INTP, told me later that I was insufferable. The more experience you get with people who are not like you, the more you'll start to see the world from new angles and realize the judgments one holds are just from one POV.

    moving on... I'll say it did take me a long time to understand the ENTP variation of devil's advocate. I play devil's advocate but my point is usually clear and is hooked into my big frame of reference focused on "balance." You seem to take up positions that you don't necessarily hold, even if it unbalances things, because the goal isn't to create a large-scale philosophical framework that hinges together; Ne is in charge, and so the goal more is to explore whatever makes sense to explore in that moment. I kept looking for a large framework to hold it all together and would be confused when I couldn't find one, but that's because there doesn't tend to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    It is interesting that NTs are more present in this thread then NFs.
    yeah. I noticed that too.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    It is interesting that NTs are more present in this thread then NFs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    yeah. I noticed that too.
    What do you think this means?

    I just choose not to participate in discussions like this anymore. They are usually saying the same thing and nothing ends up being resolved for the reasons that Jennifer mentioned. In addition to the fact that I don't have any bones to pick with NTs as a group, on this forum or in real life. Many of these disagreements could be prevented by meeting a person halfway, which I try to do when I can.

  4. #34
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think you can describe your personal view of this, but I'm not sure you should yet claim you have a handle on the NT view on it for the rest of us.
    Hence the term "musings."



    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I totally disagree, because I don't think you've perceived the correct nuance here.

    How we usually do this is to tell the NF that they're stupid and that we're smart, because we "understand the situation better" than they do and their values are inferior to our logic in terms of "truly understanding" it. Your recent argument and the others I typically see involve around trying to show the NF why the NT logic on how to frame the argument is actually the "best" frame, and their approach is irrelevant/inferior.


    So the comparison is this:
    NFs often insist they have a handle on what values are operating behind the NT's behavior.
    NTs often insist that they have a handle on what logic is operating behind the NF's behavior.

    The problem is being trapped in one's own frame of reference and having an marked inability to step into the other person's shoes and view it from their frame, insisting instead that one's frame of reference is "most valid" across the board.
    True. I think that's how most people approach most situations; however, I also think that most people tend to hold each other to unrealistically high standards in their own areas of strength, i.e., NTs expecting people to maintain their level of rational consistency all the time, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So here's another question, when you claim you're not "really upset."
    How do you know that the NF is "really upset?"
    Maybe they're really only as upset as you are, they just show it differently.
    Umm, I don't? I can't recall ever having told an NF that I know how s/he feels better than s/he does. Did I actually say that? In fact, I sent an apology letter to berber and amargith telling them that my tone came off more harshly than I intended, which I should work on--and hey look, this also happened without unrequested mod intervention, and now the issue is settled.

    And after reflecting on it I realized this and then started this thread in an attempt to better understand the situation/ask for other perspectives on it so I can try to avoid making this mistake in the future.

    This thread's point is absolutely not NF bashing...hence my invitation to anyone with relevant opinions to share.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I can identify what you've said, when I've dealt with F people and things have soured. Yes, often I just feel "annoyed" even if I sound snippy -- it's basically anger but with detachment, which reduces it to "annoyance" -- and the focus on feelings and telling me what I might or might not be feeling is what pulls me in so that I can't detach myself and then I start taking it personally.
    Uh huh, that's pretty much my point with the whole "self-fulfilling prophecy" thing. I don't hate NFs on principle; this is just one thing they do more often than other types that bugs me.

    If you cared, I could explain lots of things that bug me about other types, too, and in fact I do. I'm sure I could pull lots of posts explaining strength vs. weakness analysis on virtually every type and type comparison--so I think your assertion that I "target NFs" with type criticisms more than others is kind of unfounded.

    But nevermind that; I'm clearly a bitter NF-hater. (Despite living with an INFP roomie and working closely with NFs in almost every creative situation in my life...right.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Do you know what surprises me? That NTs with supposedly strong Ti would fail to understand why their behavior is counterproductive in getting an F (or whomever else) to think in the same fashion they do. Been there, tried that, doesn't work... nor necessarily should it. These conversations are far more productive when both sides listen and flex and empathize (via both a feeling capacity AND an intellectual capacity).
    You're right. This was my mistake, and such understanding is the point of this here little thread...not NF bashing. If I was out to bash NFs, I don't think I'd have sent them apology letters, admitted my own mistake and made an effort to better understand this situation for the future...

    Do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't think young NTs really understand yet, due to lack of social experience, how some of their comments that they view as impersonal, are heavily laden with social, emotional, and personal implication even if they're unaware of it (or aware but dismissive), and that this can actually impact both T and F people alike. Face it, a lot of people read things personally, not detached. If everyone is of "equal value," then detachment is no better than attachment, so again it's going to have to flex if it plans to integrate well into community.
    Yeah, you're also right about this, and it's certainly something I need to work on. It's hard for me to come at things from a personal perspective, but my point here is really that sometimes I do become upset in situations where it's unnecessary, simply because I respond emotionally to perceived threats to my freedom (like someone telling me how I do or don't feel.)

    As I said, the point of this thread was learning/improving communication. If I was just in "GRR I AM A SUPER RATIONAL T" denial mode, I doubt very seriously that I would apologize to NFs for my recent tone and openly discuss how my emotions came into play in this situation.

    And by the way, I don't mean to attack your credibility as a moderator. Here's another good example of the point you just made--I didn't really think about the personal implications of that statement before I said it, so, my mistake again.

    I believe I also made an effort to say that operating outside of mod rules is "quite uncharacteristic" of you, which is true...I think it's cool that you took the trouble to discuss this in such detail, and frankly I have a lot of respect for your ability to handle forum issues so impersonally in most cases.

    I can't really tell if you're upset or not from the tone of this post, but suffice it to say I didn't intend any offense and I apologize for any personal implications of it.

    This whole exchange has actually been really helpful for me already--unfortunately the only way I know how to learn is through trial and error. I know you don't have time to go through a point-by-point analysis of the thread in question, but since I'm naturally weak at reading the emotional implications of my words, anything you can do to point out when I've made such mistakes is always appreciated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Hee. I went through that exact phase (said/wrote exactly the same things) in my early/mid-20's... until it was beaten out of me. Even my best friend, an INTP, told me later that I was insufferable. The more experience you get with people who are not like you, the more you'll start to see the world from new angles and realize the judgments one holds are just from one POV.

    moving on... I'll say it did take me a long time to understand the ENTP variation of devil's advocate. I play devil's advocate but my point is usually clear and is hooked into my big frame of reference focused on "balance." You seem to take up positions that you don't necessarily hold, even if it unbalances things, because the goal isn't to create a large-scale philosophical framework that hinges together; Ne is in charge, and so the goal more is to explore whatever makes sense to explore in that moment. I kept looking for a large framework to hold it all together and would be confused when I couldn't find one, but that's because there doesn't tend to be.
    Yeah, ENTPs are ridiculous sometimes. Just like everybody else, we expect everyone to readily grasp our bizarre Ne trains of thought even when there's no real reason anyone should because they don't actually make sense! I definitely take up positions that I don't really hold because I can't really understand something until I've tried to approach it from every perspective.

    Being in my early 20s myself, I am sure I'm going through a very similar process to what you went through--but would you really understand it now if you hadn't gone through it, made your own mistakes and learned the hard way?

    It's all a function of completing the big picture--if I haven't gotten into the mindset of my opponent to determine how s/he thinks, I can't really figure out the best way to respond to him. (When I wanted to learn how to play against loose players in poker, for instance, I consciously loosened my own play to an absurd degree and lost a lot of money, all in the name of pushing it until I found the line so that I could understand where my own play lies in the broader context.)

    I became irritated when you moved posts in the thread because I was in the middle of my learning process on this topic (though I know it really doesn't look that way on the surface) and you interrupted it by doing what I perceived as misreading the situation and its emotional implications.

    Of course, a big part of that is my OWN deficiency in recognizing the emotional implications of my own words, and I see that now...so thanks again for that part. Haha. Unfortunately ENTPs tend to figure things out by pushing and pushing and pushing the line until it snaps, and then we're left to repair the pieces--truly I am sorry for this; it's just the only way I know how to learn.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #35
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    I don't really think there's as wide of a communication gap as you seem to be implying. And, as someone said earlier on this thread, I think a bigger source of conflict seems to be Ti/Fe vs. Te/Fi.

    I personally prefer a calm logical discussion to solve conflict, but I've learned to hone different skills for conflicts with different types of people over the years. I still think my hardest MBTI communication gap is with STJs.

    It's also very different in face to face interaction. We all rely so much on body language and tone and seem to forget this on the internet. I argue with my ENFP friend all the time IRL, so we can decode each other's language very well. But the content of those debates is probably very similar to the conflicts on this forum.

    The only advice I'd like to give everyone is this: the best way to solve a conflict is to try as hard as you can to take their assumptions and prove your own conclusions wrong. If you can't, you should explain where the logical or ethical disconnect is. People don't always mean what it seems like they do.

  6. #36
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    SW, do you have that same thing where when someone indicates that they need you to back off, you find yourself not being able to comply?

    It's something I've noticed in my dealings with some other ENTPs as well. For some reason, when I indicate I've had enough and I would like to leave the discussion to mull things over, they cannot seem to take no for an answer. And if you do leave, they'll hound you trying to provoke you back into the conversation by saying the things they noticed got to you the first time as well and building on that. At least, that's how I experienced it always.

    What is up with that? And do you have any idea as to why someone would do that? It's..disrespectful, I feel, and depending on who it is, in some cases it actually *does* feel like mental rape as they won't let you have a choice almost in not sharing your thoughts on the matter.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    What is up with that? And do you have any idea as to why someone would do that? It's..disrespectful, I feel, and depending on who it is, in some cases it actually *does* feel like mental rape as they won't let you have a choice almost in not sharing your thoughts on the matter.
    I think it comes from wanting to make sense of everything and, potentially, removing any doubt. Completing the holistic model of a situation. If something doesn't fit quite right in an ENTP's mind, and if you have the answer as to why that is, he's gonna try to get it from you.

    My ENTP friend does the same thing. He can't get it through his head that people can't discuss things when they're in a severely emotional state or when they need to process something; he completely ignores their feelings out of his search for an answer.

    I know I've been guilty of it once or twice, but I've learned that prodding can generate more problems than it can solve, which completely defeats the purpose of doing so in the first place.

    Situations still end up resolved in others' minds long before they're resolved in mine.

  8. #38
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    I think it comes from wanting to make sense of everything and, potentially, removing any doubt. Completing the holistic model of a situation. If something doesn't fit quite right in an ENTP's mind, and if you have the answer as to why that is, he's gonna try to get it from you.

    My ENTP friend does the same thing. He can't get it through his head that people can't discuss things when they're in a severely emotional state or when they need to process something; he completely ignores their feelings out of his search for an answer.

    I know I've been guilty of it once or twice, but I've learned that prodding can generate more problems than it can solve, which completely defeats the purpose of doing so in the first place.

    Situations still end up resolved in others' minds long before they're resolved in mine.

    My problem is more that Fs sometimes don't understand it's bad to argue with me when they feel emotional. When I realize they aren't making sense, I'll try to end the discussion until they're feeling more calm, but that sometimes makes them freak out even more.


    What am I supposed to say to someone who is just blurting out irrational non sequiturs? They'll say "I didn't mean that. I was upset."


    Well then how about we wait until you can say what you actually mean before we try to communicate?

  9. #39
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I've never had problems discussing things with NT's. I like that they don't get offended or take things personally and they like my passion.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    My problem is more that Fs sometimes don't understand it's bad to argue with me when they feel emotional. When I realize they aren't making sense, I'll try to end the discussion until they're feeling more calm, but that sometimes makes them freak out even more.


    What am I supposed to say to someone who is just blurting out irrational non sequiturs? They'll say "I didn't mean that. I was upset."
    This happens, too (though it's not necessarily a F trait). And I propose that "I was upset" is as good of an excuse as being drunk is.

    Some part of your true feelings about yourself or about other people do come out in these emotional states. You might not mean exactly what you say, but there's some truth to be gleamed from it.

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