User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 71

  1. #21
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    I honestly can't relate to the OP.
    Yeah, I get along just fine with most NTs I meet. I never understood the issue, we're both N... and I enjoy their T attitude as well.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  2. #22
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, one thing NTs do to me, is that they exaggerate their emotions if they express them at all, which causes me to become more worried than I really should. They freak me out and make me think, "Wow, they had a really strong reaction to that," and then later I realize they didn't have a strong reaction and just expressed their feelings in an exaggerated manner.

    They either do this, or they downplay their emotions all the time and unconsciously expect me to pick up on what they're feeling despite their failure to express it (and the ones that do this will either vehemently deny it or get really freaked out and start avoiding me if I point it out). If I just avoid the issue, their frustration/tension builds until they find a reason to project their emotions onto me.

    NTs are okay at expressing the type of emotion they feel, but they really suck at expressing their emotion at the level they actually feel it.
    Interesting perspective. We don't actually downplay our emotions as much as you think we do...which is not to say that we never do it, just that it doesn't extend far as you imagine it might.

    And um, we rarely expect you to pick up on what we're feeling without expressing it. That's a trademark NF issue. (The opposite mistake that NTs make commonly is assuming everyone can follow their abstract thought patterns with ease, and becoming impatient or even rude with those who can't.)

    As Thinkers we're often not even concerned with the realm of emotion at all--it just doesn't come into consideration. We often don't actively recognize that what we're saying will be perceived as emotionally hurtful. We use language in ways that run contrary to your basic feeling-based sense of the meaning of language, and you need to release the idea that so-called "heavily emotional language" is actually emotional even if no strong emotion was intended. (This is tough for Fi, I've found.)

    Anyway, what you perceive as "expressing feelings in an exaggerated manner" is actually not an exaggerated expression of emotion as often as an exaggeration expression of Te/Ti. Note that this isn't fundamentally emotional; Thinkers simply don't read the same level of emotional implications into ANYTHING the way you do because we aren't

    So, we run into an issue when you assume that we use words and phrasings in the same ways as you--you need to release the idea your perception of the emotional implications of a given phrase or wording is objectively "more correct" than someone else's. This is a function of Ni--which explains why NFJs don't exhibit the behaviors I'm dissecting nearly as often as NFPs.

    "I don't care whether he meant offense, it was hurtful and that's why I responded negatively!" is a fundamentally flawed position because it opens everyone up to negative character judgments for all kinds of completely unintentional things of which we may even be entirely unaware.

    Fi sometimes has a difficult time releasing the idea that it's always morally in the right.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #23
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Socionics
    INTp
    Posts
    413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Hehe, yeah I did already come to the same conclusion as well, but I'm wondering if there's some way we can learn from each other as bridge that gap with those that don't naturally have the same functions. Is there anyway to simulate this and how do you go about it concretely?
    This is a tough one. And I'm not sure that the complete answer can be found in MBTI alone. But for the sake of argument, let's say MBTI is the only thing we have.

    Every one of the 16 types has all 8 of the cognitive functions. It's just that some are more hidden than others. Here's an example

    ENFJ - Fe Ni Se Ti Fi Ne Si Te
    ESTJ - Te Si Ne Fi Ti Se Ne Fe

    As you can see, each other's dominant function is the other's 8th function. And within the first 4, we have the Fi/Fe and Te/Ti mismatch. I can imagine that you already see relationship problems galore.

    The Socionics site gives us a clue what happens.
    If Super-Ego partners cannot find common interests, their interaction can become very formal. Partners normally think more about expressing their own point of view than listening to their partner. This expression comes from the confident side of one of the partners reaching the unconfident side of the other partner. The latter tries to defend themselves by projecting their confident points in return. Partners normally show interest and respect to each other if they do not know each other well enough. When partners start more close interaction, they start experiencing many problems.

    Super-Ego partners may think that they understand each other well. However, when it comes to day to day matters or co-operative activity, partners start thinking that their partner is deliberately trying to do everything wrong. Super-Ego partners are not interested and do not make each other aware of their intentions. Therefore their actions may look exactly opposite to what was expected. Although the hope and the feeling between partners may remain as before, it does not prevent the conflicts penetrating their relationship.
    So now that I've set the stage for the worse match in history, how can these two get along using only the tolls of MBTI? I really don't have a clue.

    Let's say that this particular relationship has to work. And we are allowed to use non-MBTI methods, the only way that I know how to bridge the gap is to drop your ego and to not call the ego of the other. The best way to do this is to use a third party. Either to a project, or speak to each other in fables, stories or analogies. The moment the ego goes up, the defenses go up, and the mind locks into the most dominant function, which are each other's weakest function. When this happens they basically obliterate each other in argument. Nobody wins and everyone's dead.

    Even if the communication hit's a solid wall, the heart felt truth always leaves a mark. When the other person comes out from their defenses, they can analyze the mark at some later time.

    You cannot make someone understand as you do. The only thing you can hope for is to prepare your communication well and send it over with compassion. It's really up to them to open the package and hope that the message received was correct. Have your say and leave it at that. They aren't going to accept unless they are willing.

    Basically, when communicating, and things aren't working out, MBTI will give you a great insight, but it won't produce a solution. Not everyone will have similar order of functions as you. But every human understands what feelings are. This is the best bridge I know of.


    So from this 'worse case' scenario, it can only get better from here. There is no real simulation except perhaps in chat rooms and a willing partner to share the leg work in this endeavor.


    I remember a story where a young man asked his mentor about becoming a politician. He asked what he could do to help his fellow people, to which the mentor replied "work on yourself and make yourself better, so that there be one less rascal walking around" (I forget who).

    NF's natural ability is diplomacy. Bringing people together, just like all the greatest civil justice champions. First, be self aware and note your strength and weaknesses. After that, speak to their heart, not to their MBTI type

  4. #24
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Yeah, I get along just fine with most NTs I meet. I never understood the issue, we're both N... and I enjoy their T attitude as well.
    Usually it's fine; it's just the occasional really nasty disagreement that's the problem.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #25
    Senior Member epp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, one thing NTs do to me, is that they exaggerate their emotions if they express them at all, which causes me to become more worried than I really should.
    other people (say, NT-s) CAUSE you to feel a certain way... or CAUSE you to have a feeling in certain 'amounts'?

    ... WOW!!! i mean... talking about responsibility!!!

    my most valuable lesson of all times was when i realized - every single human being is responsible for their own feelings, illusions, and conclusions about other people's motives.

    you can be deadly mad at me, insult me whichever way you want... my reaction is my doing, my responsibility. i can be upset, i can feel sorry for you... or basically... whatever... however way you treat me, you can never CAUSE me to react a certain way.

    the same way you choose YOUR reactions and no NT (or whoever) can ever cause you to feel terrible. are you a proactive or a reactive person? who is responsible for your feelings and actions?

    you can think whatever you think, react however you want to react, have a feeling or intuition about someone else's motives, feelings etc, just keep in mind that it might not be true (and probably isn't) even if all the evidence seems to point that way.

    disclaimer: i'm not trying to say it's OK to tell someone off or 'let all the anger out' or say nasty things. it's not OK, because i, too, am responsible for my own actions... sensible manners are there for a reason.

  6. #26
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    I've heard many NTs claim (on this forum) that they have trouble identifying their feelings. If you don't even know what you're feeling, how can you say that the intuitions of others on the matter are wrong (enough to call this sort of thing a pattern of communication breakdown between NTs and NFs)?

    You have to give up something. Either you are regularly able to identify your feelings, or you're not. In the latter case, you're more likely to be caught behaving emotionally without recognizing the influence of emotion on your behavior. If that's the case, it may be easier and more likely for others to pick up on your emotional states than it would be for you to recognize them on your own.

    And I say this in a general sense, not in reference to any silly squabble that may have taken place between SW and Amargith (which may or may not exemplify the communication difficulties that can arise between NTs and NFs.)

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    For an exaggerated case to prove my point, see the NFP-heavy far social left that honestly believes that 100% of people who oppose gay marriage are horrible, cruel bigots who hate them personally.
    Eh, I'd say they're just 100% idiot.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #27
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8,690

    Default

    It is interesting that NTs are more present in this thread then NFs.

  8. #28
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I've heard many NTs claim (on this forum) that they have trouble identifying their feelings. If you don't even know what you're feeling, how can you say that the intuitions of others on the matter are wrong (enough to call this sort of thing a pattern of communication breakdown between NTs and NFs)?
    Umm, well I don't know who you're referring to specifically, but you underestimate the significance of the whole "you're not me" barrier.

    How can I see this pattern of communication breakdown? Ne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You have to give up something. Either you are regularly able to identify your feelings, or you're not. In the latter case, you're more likely to be caught behaving emotionally without recognizing the influence of emotion on your behavior. If that's the case, it may be easier and more likely for others to pick up on your emotional states than it would be for you to recognize them on your own.
    I suppose that would be true for someone who's totally unaware of his own feelings, but I think this is pretty rare even for NTs.

    I don't see that I have to concede anything. I'd say I'm pretty aware of my own feelings most of the time; they're just not as strong a force in my decision-making as impersonal reasoning.

    In any event, hearing one NT say that he can't identify his own feelings is in no way an indication that this holds true for all or even most of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    And I say this in a general sense, not in reference to any silly squabble that may have taken place between SW and Amargith (which may or may not exemplify the communication difficulties that can arise between NTs and NFs.)
    And absolutely does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Eh, I'd say they're just 100% idiot.
    Well, no, they're just binging on F and have relatively poor T development.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #29
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Interesting perspective. We don't actually downplay our emotions as much as you think we do...which is not to say that we never do it, just that it doesn't extend far as you imagine it might.

    And um, we rarely expect you to pick up on what we're feeling without expressing it. That's a trademark NF issue. (The opposite mistake that NTs make commonly is assuming everyone can follow their abstract thought patterns with ease, and becoming impatient or even rude with those who can't.)
    Well, I'd agree that most NTs don't do this. They usually exaggerate them. I've only met about 3 out of... say, 20? NTs that do that. And I have to say, it's much more annoying than the ones that exaggerate. It's easier to mentally compensate for exaggeration than downplaying/unspoken expectations.
    As Thinkers we're often not even concerned with the realm of emotion at all--it just doesn't come into consideration. We often don't actively recognize that what we're saying will be perceived as emotionally hurtful. We use language in ways that run contrary to your basic feeling-based sense of the meaning of language, and you need to release the idea that so-called "heavily emotional language" is actually emotional even if no strong emotion was intended. (This is tough for Fi, I've found.)

    Anyway, what you perceive as "expressing feelings in an exaggerated manner" is actually not an exaggerated expression of emotion as often as an exaggeration expression of Te/Ti. Note that this isn't fundamentally emotional; Thinkers simply don't read the same level of emotional implications into ANYTHING the way you do because we aren't

    So, we run into an issue when you assume that we use words and phrasings in the same ways as you--you need to release the idea your perception of the emotional implications of a given phrase or wording is objectively "more correct" than someone else's. This is a function of Ni--which explains why NFJs don't exhibit the behaviors I'm dissecting nearly as often as NFPs.
    I'm not really talking about hurtful things. I rarely see anything an NT says as hurtful, so much as I see exaggerated expressions of joy or disappointment over a situation. My impression is that they've unconsciously learned to just throw additional emotional emphasis in a misguided attempt to express themselves in a more human manner, and it just makes their emotions seem exaggerated. This ends up making more people (especially SFs) comfortable with them, but NFs will be confused and note how the reaction doesn't make emotional sense (due to it's out-of-phase degree) in context of the way the NT normally processes and responds to reality, and just won't know quite what to make of it at first.

    "I don't care whether he meant offense, it was hurtful and that's why I responded negatively!" is a fundamentally flawed position because it opens everyone up to negative character judgments for all kinds of completely unintentional things of which we may even be entirely unaware.

    Fi sometimes has a difficult time releasing the idea that it's always morally in the right.
    You can say that again. I often have this problem with INFPs reading things into what I said that weren't there, and then implying I'm "superficial" or "cold" or something. No, I'm just not as sensitive as an INFP, nor am I sensitive to the same things. But that's another topic, it doesn't apply to all INFPs, and it's been done to death.

  10. #30
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Epp, if you are in fact allowed to react that strongly and demand others don't read into it, you should do the same for Fi-users who appear 'Emo' to you as they are usually just trying to explain themselves and are therefore just as entitled to express themselves in such a way as you are in expressing yourself the way you want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    I suppose that would be true for someone who's totally unaware of his own feelings, but I think this is pretty rare even for NTs.

    I don't see that I have to concede anything. I'd say I'm pretty aware of my own feelings most of the time; they're just not as strong a force in my decision-making as impersonal reasoning.

    Well, no, they're just binging on F and have relatively poor T development.
    Unfortunately that's the problem. You don't see how you're part of this, I guess, just that F's don't do T that well. The fact that your own lack of F is part of the issue, seems to be not your concern nor something you're willing to face. Can't expect a compromise or solution, if it's a one way street, unfortunately.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] NTs on NTs
    By MacGuffin in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 139
    Last Post: 09-06-2012, 12:38 AM
  2. Question about NT/NF/SP/SJ
    By pure_mercury in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 09-09-2009, 09:49 PM
  3. [MBTItm] NT-NF pairing
    By entropie in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 04-13-2009, 07:52 PM
  4. [MBTItm] NTs/NFs on SJs
    By Giggly in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 62
    Last Post: 03-05-2009, 04:13 PM
  5. [NT] Berens' comments on NTs and conflict
    By rivercrow in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 07-13-2007, 05:05 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO