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  1. #1
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Default Effects of INxJ tertiary functions

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I say Ti, mostly based on the thread where you described the dilemma of whether or not to sit in the chair. You seem to want to apply a type of logic to social norms and etiquette. It's like your Fe is wired into Ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    If you are an ITJ, you Fi isn't very detectable. The INTJs may want to deny it, but their Fi is quite apparent. If you're an ITJ, I don't see much Fi in your posts.
    I was just thinking of these two posts, and they started me thinking about INxJ tertiary functions, and how they typically manifest. I think that due to the dominant Ni, they might manifest slightly more than in other types (although this may actually be applicable to any type with a dominant perceiving function). While I think I understand how Fi manifests in INTJ's and will attempt to describe it here, I want to hear some outside opinions.

    I have observed that healthy INTJ's typically have a certain kind of personal integrity that makes the idea of being wrong, deliberately misleading someone, or in some cases even behaving unjustly rather abhorrent to them. This is partially based on their Te, to be certain, but the way this Fi works in service to Te is apparent in other ways, such as their tendency to refer to themselves and their own state when discussing emotions, and that their emotional preferences/standards don't seem to be affected much by what others think of them (at least not in the same way mine are), all hinting that Fi > Fe for them.

    Regarding INFJ's, I have less to go on. The only (potential) examples of INFJ's and Ti I actually have to offer are myself and toonia. I likely don't understand the nature of Ti well enough to speculate here, but I would guess that it is the reason I seem to tend towards trying to understand something as well/precisely as possible, and nitpick about points most people would consider insignificant. toonia seems to display a similar tendency in the the former, but I'm not sure about the latter. This could also be the source of the 5 wing many INFJ's reveal in Enneagram testing (They usually test as 4w5).

    So, does anyone have ideas to share regarding this topic?

  2. #2
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    the way this Fi works in service to Te is apparent in other ways, such as their tendency to refer to themselves and their own state when discussing emotions, and that their emotional preferences/standards don't seem to be affected much by what others think of them (at least not in the same way mine are), all hinting that Fi > Fe for them.
    I don't know that it's typical of INTJs but my Fe is in jeopardy of withering away. Fi/Fe are something I'm only starting to understand.

    This is Fi, yes? I cannot stand to be what I see as "two faced", i.e., talking behind someone's back and being nice to them to their face. It's fake and I refuse to particpate. I'm not openly rude to them, I prefer to ingore them unless they make that impossible.

    Whereas this is Fe:

    I don't mean to imply, by the above Fi example, that I am impolite; quite the contrary. In social situations I am polite and observe common courtesy - holding the door open, saying "Thank you" for example.

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  3. #3
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    This is Fi, yes? I cannot stand to be what I see as "two faced", i.e., talking behind someone's back and being nice to them to their face. It's fake and I refuse to particpate. I'm not openly rude to them, I prefer to ingore them unless they make that impossible.
    I have always been a little confused between Ti and Fi behavior in some circumstances.

    For example, what you describe is something I feel too -- but to me it tends to be intellectualized. I see it merely as a matter of consistency and logic, that things have to be uniform and coherent... including my character. I remember when I was a teenager and just thought Fe stuff was completely stupid, even though I did not want to stir up trouble; to me, it was inconsistent to show one thing but believe another inside, and I hated it.

    So it seems to me that either Fi is much broader in scope, or that Ti can mimic Fi, just in more impersonal ways. But how can I compare my subjective internal experience to yours, and thus determine that yours was more personal/Fi and mine was more impersonal/Ti? I don't know the answer to that.

    I don't mean to imply, by the above Fi example, that I am impolite; quite the contrary. In social situations I am polite and observe common courtesy - holding the door open, saying "Thank you" for example.
    Nowadays, I'm fine with most Fe stuff, if I think it comes out of an honest intention to be kind or polite to someone and not a desire to mislead or put on airs.

    I think this is partly due to changes inside of me. I now generally WANT to be courteous to everyone and open to a connection with them, because I think everyone is of equal worth regardless of how much like me they are. (At worst, I will just avoid people who I think have poor character or find myself repulsed by on a personal level, thereby avoiding the temptation to lie.) Therefore the Fe that is expressed is still consistent with my inner nature/character.

    Sorry for the tangent; I will think more about tertiary functions and login later on the issue...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #4
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I have always been a little confused between Ti and Fi behavior in some circumstances.
    If it confuses you I don't feel so bad. <wiping brow>

    For example, what you describe is something I feel too -- but to me it tends to be intellectualized. I see it merely as a matter of consistency and logic, that things have to be uniform and coherent... including my character. I remember when I was a teenager and just thought Fe stuff was completely stupid, even though I did not want to stir up trouble; to me, it was inconsistent to show one thing but believe another inside, and I hated it.
    FWIW, the reaction I have is almost visceral. It. Just. Isn't. Right.

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  5. #5
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    This is Fi, yes? I cannot stand to be what I see as "two faced", i.e., talking behind someone's back and being nice to them to their face. It's fake and I refuse to particpate. I'm not openly rude to them, I prefer to ingore them unless they make that impossible.
    Well, I would say that the first few parts sound like more like Fi to me, but I think we need an INFP to tell us more. I think that last one might be more related to inferior Se under stress, though.
    Whereas this is Fe:

    I don't mean to imply, by the above Fi example, that I am impolite; quite the contrary. In social situations I am polite and observe common courtesy - holding the door open, saying "Thank you" for example.
    That is fairly standard and is related to Fe, but most types learn to do similar things. Those are basic Fe skills that everyone uses. You seem to understand fairly well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I have always been a little confused between Ti and Fi behavior in some circumstances.

    For example, what you describe is something I feel too -- but to me it tends to be intellectualized. I see it merely as a matter of consistency and logic, that things have to be uniform and coherent... including my character. I remember when I was a teenager and just thought Fe stuff was completely stupid, even though I did not want to stir up trouble; to me, it was inconsistent to show one thing but believe another inside, and I hated it.
    Interestingly, it never used to bother me to lie so that people would think better of me, but I never did so unless the truth was particularly negative, because I didn't really care to be two-faced (for fear someone would find out and be angry with me), although I would if I felt I needed to.
    So it seems to me that either Fi is much broader in scope, or that Ti can mimic Fi, just in more impersonal ways. But how can I compare my subjective internal experience to yours, and thus determine that yours was more personal/Fi and mine was more impersonal/Ti? I don't know the answer to that.
    Actually, if my understanding is correct, Ti does mimic Fi in impersonal ways. They both observe a standard derived from observation, and it's likely that once Ti acknowledges emotion, it can use a similar standard derived from the impersonal. I'm pretty sure that I see Fi and not Ti in INTJ's because their T is already outward, and their internal feeling standards have that Fi "vibe." Ti would add a certain extra precision to INTJ's in areas they don't usually have it, and this standard is the source of their feelings, and I think it matches up internally with the style they use to evaluate things externally. The impersonal part is already on the outside, and you can tell it's directed by internal emotion.

    Nowadays, I'm fine with most Fe stuff, if I think it comes out of an honest intention to be kind or polite to someone and not a desire to mislead or put on airs.
    For the record, I believe that Fe types have no desire to mislead or put on airs. We only do that if we feel threatened socially, and then we feel kind of guilty about it.
    I think this is partly due to changes inside of me. I now generally WANT to be courteous to everyone and open to a connection with them, because I think everyone is of equal worth regardless of how much like me they are. (At worst, I will just avoid people who I think have poor character or find myself repulsed by on a personal level, thereby avoiding the temptation to lie.) Therefore the Fe that is expressed is still consistent with my inner nature/character.
    That is a difference between us. I intrinsically believe that some people are necessarily better than others. I naturally tend to see people and society hierarchically. This could be related to Fe.
    Sorry for the tangent; I will think more about tertiary functions and login later on the issue...
    Apology accepted.

  6. #6
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that I see Fi and not Ti in INTJ's because their T is already outward, and their internal feeling standards have that Fi vibe.
    My Te and Ti score nearly identical when tested. I actually come out, in order of preference, Ne/Te/Ni/Ti/Fi/Si/Se/Fe. Regardless, I agree with you, at least in my case. A definite "Fi" vibe.

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    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    I was going to give Joe Butts definition of Ti and Fi on the teritiary, however I don’t understand how it can be different for INTJ/ISTJ and INFJ/ISFJ respectively. At that level, I don’t think the Ni/Si dominance will be decisive. Here is the excerpts from Lenore Thomson’s Wiki page:
    As a Tertiary Function, Ti leads IFJs to.... ?
    ...."advise others on the wisdom of their choices"(edited from Lenorep.231 on INFJs.) vis a vis Ti as a primary attribute. Also, tertiary Ti leads to an important emphasis on personal experience. Yet unlike dominant and secondary Ti, tertiary Ti can often lead sweeping generalizations induced from sparse evidence. Tertiary Ti leads can lead to a narcissistic focus on your own experience, or the experience of people who stand with you. If someone disagrees with you, then they must be naive. This kind of narrow view is often used defensively. Especially when combined with dominant Ni, tertiary Ti can be used to defend bizarre theories that are completely unfalsifiable. An example of tertiary Ti is the feminist concept of "authority of experience," and its use thereof. This concept is used to exalt the experience of women who toe the party line of feminism, but feminists aren't always so quick to acknowledge the experience of women (and men) who disagree with them. For example, a woman who works in the pornography industry and claims that she has been exploited is considered to be speaking gospel, but a woman who works in the porn industry and says that she enjoys it is speaking heresy.
    As a Tertiary Function, Fi typically leads ITJs to retreat into solitary actions that have no constructive worldly effect but are aimed at providing a justification for calling themselves good people. Another example is obsession with the purity of one's soul. For example, being a vegetarian while working at Taco Bell--not out of any great love for animals (the person might hardly know anything about what cows are like), but to be able to say, "Well, at least I never ate any animals." Or engaging in pointless acts of honor, like maintaining super-self-control or "doing one's duty" or going down with the ship. Nothing is gained by going down with the ship; it's a hyper-introverted act aimed at providing a rationalization for one's goodness without regard to real-world consequences. Nearly all of these tertiary-Fi acts involve refraining from action viewed as unethical rather than taking positive action that would accomplish something. They're a retreat from the world--or rather, a rationalization for disregarding worldly matters.

  8. #8
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    At that level, I don't think the Ni/Si dominance will be decisive. Here are the excerpts from Lenore Thomson’s Wiki page:
    Fudge, I'll have to go there again... and dig out my copy of her book -- I forgot she might have covered all this. Thanks for the quotes. (FWIW, I'm not sure that Ni/Si would prove distinctive either.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #9
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Fudge, I'll have to go there again... and dig out my copy of her book -- I forgot she might have covered all this. Thanks for the quotes. (FWIW, I'm not sure that Ni/Si would prove distinctive either.)
    It might well be the inferior that changes it. But since Ni and Si view the world so differently, I personally think even the tertiary function is bound to be used differently. I think many ISFJ's use their Ti in a more concrete way than I do (When/if I use it).

    But tell us if you find anything insightful in that book.

  10. #10
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    It might be the inferior that changes it. But since Ni and Si view the world so differently, I think even the tertiary function is bound to be used differently. I think many ISFJ's use their Ti in a more concrete way than I do (When/if I use it).
    Which is the reason that I did not quote Butts from typelogic. MBTI and Jung are adamant that you can only use one attitude at a time, therefore you cannot introvert two functions simultaneously.

    If you are at the teritiary level, then there are several introverted functions that may or may not be used before you reach back to the dominant function (for example: INTJ= Ni, Si, Ti, Fi), regardless of the speed of disintegration to that level. It would seem logical that Ni and Si would come from two different perspectives, coloring the perception of Ti or Fi when a type goes to the teritiary level. Then again, and I would agree that neither would make a difference at that level. Ergo all ITJs and all IFJs would look similar.

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