Are you wary of Fe?

[PeaceBaby]

Us Fi / Fe users have to stick together instead of pulling each other apart.

Personally I am wary of this whole thread!

After all, we use both functions all the time, and there are many examples in this thread of a cross-over of interpretation of what constitutes each function.

Let's refresh: (excerpts from INFP or INFJ):

When Fi is a preferred process...

Often you have a gut feeling about whether personal, group, or organizational behavior is congruent with values.

You often check behavior for authenticity and against beliefs to maintain inner harmony. When that harmony exists, there is a sense of peace.

When you feel strongly, you point out contradictions and incongruities.

Fundamental truths are often the basis for your actions, and standing up for these truths is energizing and compelling.

Often, you do not put your values and beliefs upon others or share them publicly until they are violated. These values can be highly specific to the individual or universals such as freedom, loyalty, and goodness.

You tend to see everything as having a value (or worth), and view things in constant relation to one another.​

INTERNAL WORLD
Introverted Feeling (Fi)

Weighing beliefs
Harmonizing and clarifying
Valuing
Checking congruency
Universal

---

When Fe is a preferred process...

You give attention to creating and maintaining harmonious relationships, often using social convention to keep harmony, to make people feel comfortable and included, and to keep the group intact.

Often you are at ease with social conversations and knowing just the right words to say to someone.

You easily disclose personal details to encourage others to express themselves.

You place importance on making space for the expression of feelings -- positive and negative.

You organize time, space, and thing in relation to the effects on people.

You often feel pulled to take care of everyone or even whole groups, either physically or emotionally. Meeting the needs of others is energizing until your own needs are ignored for too long.​

EXTERNAL WORLD
Extraverted Feeling (Fe)

Considering others
Affirming and accommodating
Connecting
Checking appropriateness
Evoked by what is here and now

 

[entropie]

first wise thing I read today +5 stars

 

[Kalach]

I believe she does this because she's not comfortable being in a leadership position, doesn't like to delegate work, but also realizes she can't do the work by herself, but is uncomfortable outright telling someone what to do. She is not a very direct person at all, but hints and insinuates at things she wants done. For the most part, I catch on to her insinuations but she often uses these same tactics when she's upset or in a foul mood.

So she'll say things like "I'm doing the work of 7 people," and depending on how I feel like responding I'll be silent and wait for her to tell me what she wants to do or say "OK, I'll do XYZ." Or she'll give me a project to do, tell me to do it how I want to do it, and if one piece of the project entails emailing a specific agency with a certain request I'll go to her and ask her is there anything she'd like me to emphasis in the communication. She'll say no no do it the way you like, I send the email, and then she'll send me back a critique of everything I should've said that I didn't. This has happened so many times I can't even count them.

Would you say this is Fi behaving badly? Is this behavior that supersedes function and type? Because we certainly don't get very much of this on the forum, it's only Fe who gets pinned with this scarlet letter.

I'd say it sounds like every INFP I know. Leading, or trying to lead, via Ne--meaning suggestions rather than orders--plus a gigantic background sensitivity that looks really, really self-involved and spins them around far more than is easy to watch, tending me to accidentally try taking more and more responsibility for their sense of well-being. It can be really hard to shrug this stuff off.

The odd thing is, in fact one is *not* supposed to take responsibility for an INFP's feelings. Especially not an INFP who is in management.

I suspect INFP's would find it lovely and pleasing if people paid direct attention to their feelings, but to some big degree, paying attention to an Fi-user's feelings keeps them locked inside themselves. Practical outcomes let them come out and be human.

She reroutes impersonal statements to something about herself and construes it as personal when it was never meant as such. There is the feeling of needing to be very careful in how you word things, how you say things, to explain that it was not directed at you specifically.

Yep.

Maybe this is what FPs pick up on, the delicateness, and they view this as insincere, false, and pandering. Maybe both sides are not clearly seeing the cause and effect of innocent behavior.

Probably true. How many people know enough about everyone else to be able to know what to do about each compromise that comes their way?

 

[garbage]

I totally agree with getting a working definition. And we probably don't have the same working definition. My definition is more social psychological in nature and not based on the typological definition. So when I think of group norms and values I think of things like social entropy, or prisoner's dilemma games, social mores, cultural values, things of that nature. I think on what exactly they are, not what a phrase that refers to them is. And I try to break down exactly what those things are which I've not seen anyone do, just generally rail against the fact they exist. That's not enough for me.

So I'm asking you to please, break them down. What are some that you specifically find oppressive (Amargith gave some and thank you for that) and how do you connect those with the Fe function?

If you're not using the typological definition in a typological discussion on a typology forum, your definition probably won't match a lot of those that others here are using. That might be the cause of some confusion.

I'm not sure how granular you want me to break these down, so I'll just give examples of the kind of behavior that makes me wary.


A friend of mine gets wary about drinking when others we're out with don't, and wanting to dress like they do. He wants us to "match" when we dress, since we're friends.. and, of course, "it's what friends do." He expects me to follow his sense of these norms and is passive aggressive toward me when I fail to do so. I'm not sure why I hang out with this person..


A Fe-dominant relative gets irate when every single holiday doesn't go exactly as planned, and, since she's so neurotic about it and holds such high standards for them, these holidays never go well. For any of us.


Another friend of mine was absolutely crushed that I didn't invite him to my graduation. I didn't invite anyone to it aside from my immediate family, because the graduation wasn't a big deal to me at all--in fact, it meant so little to me that it only incidentally came up in conversation with him.

He proceeded to ask all of his other friends about it, naturally leaving my opinion out of his discussion. He concluded that, since most of them would have invited their friends to such an event, that I "should have" as well. I didn't hear the end of that one for a very, very long time.

I understand that a community-oriented function would want to celebrate these things with me.. but, if I don't want to, then why should anyone else care?


An acquaintance has no internal moral compass, and so is able to convert others to a point of view that just so happens to favor him; namely, getting them to abandon their own morals for his own personal gain. Before they know what's happened, the damage has been done. He's flat-out ruined many other people.. I could tell some stories, but I'd rather not.

Because these people don't fit within his internal circle of friends, he flat out "doesn't care" about them and so feels no remorse for his actions.


But I'll add the disclaimer that, of course, this is only "unhealthy" Fe. Or, it's some unheard of cognitive function that nobody can identify with. Every cognitive function sucks, and everyone who uses any cognitive function is a horrible person by nature.

There. Now nobody can take these examples personally.


And, another disclaimer to show that I appreciate Fe. To a certain extent, I know how to speak Fe. I like giving people personally-tailored birthday and Christmas gifts that show that I care about them. Stephen Covey is one of my role models. So on and so forth.

I hope that's enough disclaimers to offset any sort of personal offense my examples might cause.

That's part of why I think this thread is ridiculous. It largely seems like back and forth bashing.

agree

All "anti-function" threads devolve into that, because people identify so strongly with their functions for some reason.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I'd say it sounds like every INFP I know. Leading, or trying to lead, via Ne--meaning suggestions rather than orders

^ This is one INFP who would have no trouble telling you what to work on if you were part of my staff LOL!

Why all the generalizing? Honestly, we learn stuff all our lives, and new strength areas are developed over time. Every type has their own natural tendencies if you will, every type, but if you believe part of the meaning of our lives involves learning, you are exposed to these opportunities all through your existence.

So hey, cut everyone some slack! I give you all permission to be human OK, and not perfect yet.

 

[entropie]

^ This is one INFP who would have no trouble telling you what to work on if you were part of my staff LOL!

I am pleased to meet one of that kind. I thought they never existed... Pleased to met you, my name is Olli and my left arm is longer than my right

 

[PeaceBaby]

Now granted, I had to learn to be granular and be specific and EXPECT results. Not make excuses for others. But hey, that's what we're all here to do right? Learn?

Nice to meet you too entropie. Maybe you already work for me - that would be fun! We can try to improve your grasping issues later.

 

[Udog]

Peacebaby, that was a wonderful post.

 

[entropie]

Indeed

 

[PeaceBaby]

PeaceBaby - enjoying looking at the big picture since ... well, never you mind how long.

 

[Jaguar]

I think that this kind of behavior can transcend type. I don't know why you even assume that it's specifically INFP behavior.

I'm waiting to see someone claim all XXXX drive red cars.

 

[entropie]

PeaceBaby - enjoying looking at the big picture since ... well, never you mind how long.

If you start to get arrogant now, I am gonna recruit you for the NT forums

 

[Kalach]

^ This is one INFP who would have no trouble telling you what to work on if you were part of my staff LOL!

Why all the generalizing? Honestly, we learn stuff all our lives, and new strength areas are developed over time. Every type has their own natural tendencies if you will, every type, but if you believe part of the meaning of our lives involves learning, you are exposed to these opportunities all through your existence.

The idea was, if one pays direct attention to INFP feeling, one gets the Fi/Si loop, an INFP stuck inside themselves (unless they can bust out by themselves). And if one feeds an INFP with practical plans/outcomes, one gets their Ne/Te loop, and they manage their own feeling stuff (unless the practical outcomes have nothing to do with what the INFP was feeling, in which case one gets pouts and dismissal--which I suppose is one way of bring Ne/Te back online).

Simplistic, but model-theoretically pretty.


(It does, however, make INFPs sound fairly/unfairly passive.)

 

[Thalassa]

The idea was, if one pays direct attention to INFP feeling, one gets the Fi/Si loop, an INFP stuck inside themselves (unless they can bust out by themselves). And if one feeds an INFP with practical plans/outcomes, one gets their Ne/Te loop, and they manage their own feeling stuff (unless the practical outcomes have nothing to do with what the INFP was feeling, in which case one gets pouts and dismissal--which I suppose is one way of bring Ne/Te back online).

Simplistic, but model-theoretically pretty.


(It does, however, make INFPs sound fairly/unfairly passive.)

But what about INFPs with relatively high Fe who aren't passive?

That's another reason why the stereotypes are bad - some people have more strength in cognitive functions that don't fit neatly into the box, even if they "prefer" one over the other.

I know an INFJ who has outrageously strong Ti, and an INTP with interestingly prominant Fi.

Fi is my dominant function, but my Ni and Ne are almost identical, and my Fe is extremely close. I sometimes test as INFJ.

So where are the categories for people like us?

 

[heart]

So she'll say things like "I'm doing the work of 7 people," and depending on how I feel like responding I'll be silent and wait for her to tell me what she wants to do or say "OK, I'll do XYZ." Or she'll give me a project to do, tell me to do it how I want to do it, and if one piece of the project entails emailing a specific agency with a certain request I'll go to her and ask her is there anything she'd like me to emphasis in the communication. She'll say no no do it the way you like, I send the email, and then she'll send me back a critique of everything I should've said that I didn't. This has happened so many times I can't even count them.

Would you say this is Fi behaving badly?

Yes, she's unprofessional and how did she even get promoted into that position and how does she get anything done? I've had to train people on the job or be in charge at times and when I do, I can get very Te dictatorial---it's tiring but I do it. But no one can expect on the job to just say "Oh gee I hope you do it the right way" one has to not only be specific but one has to repeat often and even still keep checks on progress. People hear what they want so one has to be extra careful on the job making sure that instructions are given correctly else there's no hope whatsoever...even when things are given correctly it's no assurance things will be done in the right way.

heart, please don't get offended by this, but I think you're doing exactly what the second INFP I mentioned does. She reroutes impersonal statements to something about herself and construes it as personal when it was never meant as such.

There is the feeling of needing to be very careful in how you word things, how you say things, to explain that it was not directed at you specifically. FJs are sensitive to such nuances and respond accordingly. And perhaps, once again, you may be doing the same thing the third INFP did--thinking someone is condemning something about them when there has been no such thought going through the person's mind.

Well, my mother (a strong J) would put it bluntly and tell me that I "cut people with" my eyes when I was just concentrating on my own internal thoughts. (Among other thought crimes, thinking I was more intelligent than she was, that I thought I was better than she was, Laughing at her in my mind etc.)

Teachers have stopped class and asked me what my "problem" was when I was just concentrating. ( related one of these events on here somewhere)

People ask me "Are you mad? Are you upset?" when I am not at all mad or upset and they won't take my word for it but keep asking. So there's some issue of vibes being felt and mis-interpreted there. It's usually a case of being asked a direct question that makes me say that these people are taking affront to something I am giving off that I am not trying to do.

Like once I had a pharmacist (he seemed really TJ) start yelling at me because he said I looked like I didn't care how expensive the medication I was picking up was, he used these exact words. He said he hated to see so many people go without insurance when people like me didn't even care! ( I was so F-ing sick and feeling just out of it)

I hadn't done more than ask for my meds and start writing a check out. It really shook me for a long time, I wondered what I had done to set the guy off. I mean it's disturbing to not know what one is doing to set someone like him off and be able to avoid doing it in the future.

This is an example. there are other events like it. I've had my husband and friends there at some of them and they verfied that I was not somehow twisting the events.

PS. I got no business being online right now, my eyes all messed up so I hope I got your gist correctly this time.

PSS. Your boss has always sounded like a living nightmare to work for. I'd really like to get the whole truth on how she got to be in her position. If she doesn't really manage, how does she avoid having a lot of errors and crisis?

 

[Lightyear]

Us Fi / Fe users have to stick together instead of pulling each other apart.

Personally I am wary of this whole thread!

After all, we use both functions all the time, and there are many examples in this thread of a cross-over of interpretation of what constitutes each function.

Let's refresh: (excerpts from INFP or INFJ):

When Fi is a preferred process...

Often you have a gut feeling about whether personal, group, or organizational behavior is congruent with values.

You often check behavior for authenticity and against beliefs to maintain inner harmony. When that harmony exists, there is a sense of peace.

When you feel strongly, you point out contradictions and incongruities.

Fundamental truths are often the basis for your actions, and standing up for these truths is energizing and compelling.

Often, you do not put your values and beliefs upon others or share them publicly until they are violated. These values can be highly specific to the individual or universals such as freedom, loyalty, and goodness.

You tend to see everything as having a value (or worth), and view things in constant relation to one another.​

INTERNAL WORLD
Introverted Feeling (Fi)

Weighing beliefs
Harmonizing and clarifying
Valuing
Checking congruency
Universal

---

When Fe is a preferred process...

You give attention to creating and maintaining harmonious relationships, often using social convention to keep harmony, to make people feel comfortable and included, and to keep the group intact.

Often you are at ease with social conversations and knowing just the right words to say to someone.

You easily disclose personal details to encourage others to express themselves.

You place importance on making space for the expression of feelings -- positive and negative.

You organize time, space, and thing in relation to the effects on people.

You often feel pulled to take care of everyone or even whole groups, either physically or emotionally. Meeting the needs of others is energizing until your own needs are ignored for too long.​

EXTERNAL WORLD
Extraverted Feeling (Fe)

Considering others
Affirming and accommodating
Connecting
Checking appropriateness
Evoked by what is here and now

You know, I can actually relate to both these functions (though when it comes down to it I am much more Fe, always trying to find the common ground and make people feel comfortable).

Fi makes sense to me to some degree because I was brought up in a place (East Germany) that puts much more value on truth than politeness/correct social behaviour and I had to learn to adjust myself to an enivronment that sees being polite and using loads of social pleasantries as key (England)

I remember being utterly perplexed by the English habit of writing "Thank you" cards after birthdays (Very weird to a German mindset. If I would want to say thank you for a present I would do so but why does society expect it of me, that is just turning showing gratitude into an empty ritual!) and I can't tell you the countless times I have ranted against small talk (Again Germans don't do small talk, we don't even have a German word for it but just say what we think, what's the point of empty pleasantries? I remember being so annoyed by small talk that I once wrote a poem about it which I entitled "You are digging me a shallow grave", I suppose everyone has their coping mechanisms )

I also can't really go against inner convictions, I would feel horrible and like a fraud and am the worst liar ever. I won't tell you something nice just in order to be nice, I actually really have to mean what I say or else I feel my praise becomes empty and loses its power to change and heal people.

However on the other hand I have learned over the last few years that some social niceties just keep the wheels of society running smoothly, so why go against that if it makes the other person feel better and appreciated?

 

[PeaceBaby]

If you start to get arrogant now, I am gonna recruit you for the NT forums

I was going to put in the humble smiley, but that seemed facetious, hence my comment, but as reward to you for giving me a head shake, I send you the traditional NF favorite smiley instead: .

I enjoy the banter in the NT forum. I work with programmers so have had to "bring my A game" many times to the table - they help me sharpen my Te!

 

[PeaceBaby]

The idea was, if one pays direct attention to INFP feeling, one gets the Fi/Si loop, an INFP stuck inside themselves (unless they can bust out by themselves). And if one feeds an INFP with practical plans/outcomes, one gets their Ne/Te loop, and they manage their own feeling stuff (unless the practical outcomes have nothing to do with what the INFP was feeling, in which case one gets pouts and dismissal--which I suppose is one way of bring Ne/Te back online).

Simplistic, but model-theoretically pretty.

(It does, however, make INFPs sound fairly/unfairly passive.)

I don't feel like this describes me though at my employment, nor would anyone know think I was ... passive. (They laugh when I tell them I am introverted! Really I am!) As a leader I know what the expectations are, so I have consciously worked on developing skills so I have lots of tools in the toolbox (so to speak).

I can appreciate what you are saying re the Fi / Si loop - but only in my personal close relationships. Sometimes if my husband is too facilitating to my emotional state, it gets me stuck there, so I do focus on busting myself out rather than relying on someone else's "help". But I do appreciate his .

The point I was making though, was that you are making too many generalizations. Because you make it sound as though an INFP couldn't possibly lead ... anyone ... successfully. Let alone themselves!

Unless I have completely missed your point, so please expand further so I can appreciate what you are trying to say.

But what about INFPs with relatively high Fe who aren't passive?

That's another reason why the stereotypes are bad - some people have more strength in cognitive functions that don't fit neatly into the box, even if they "prefer" one over the other.

I know an INFJ who has outrageously strong Ti, and an INTP with interestingly prominant Fi.

Fi is my dominant function, but my Ni and Ne are almost identical, and my Fe is extremely close. I sometimes test as INFJ.

So where are the categories for people like us?

A good point, function order doesn't always seem to fit those neat MBTI models. Myself, I score high in Te and Fe, but does simply mean I have consciously developed these to fit my life situations? Perhaps. Using them does have a higher energy price tag attached. My energizing functions do seem to fit in the Ne / Fi categories.

Just another example I think of how we are learning, growing, developing all the time.

 

[Amargith]

I think it's best if both Fe and Fi users realize that there is in fact a communication problem and that it doesn't have to be about how annoying the other funtion is or how people 'abuse' it (though that certainly happens), but in fact misinterpreting each others good intentions.

I'm also quite interested to see how our fav twins overcome this as they deal with this daily. Pink? Jaye? How do you guys keep misunderstandings to a minimum?

Coz personally, I'd love to sort this out. I'd love to find the Stone of Rosetta on this one. I've done some discussing with Jeno about this on my profile, and by trying not to get defensive (though we failed several times and had to clarify our intents to prevent a complete misrepresentation/interpretation of the facts), we at least got some stuff cleared out but I haven't had a chance to with a Fe-dom yet. The thing is, to do this, you have to have some faith and trust and give the other the benefit of the doubt, and even then it's hard, I've noticed.

Still, it would be worth the head aches and frustration I feel.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I think it's best if both Fe and Fi users realize that there is in fact a communication problem and that it doesn't have to be about how annoying the other funtion is or how people 'abuse' it (though that certainly happens), but in fact misinterpreting each others good intentions.

I'm also quite interested to see how our fav twins overcome this as they deal with this daily. Pink? Jaye? How do you guys keep misunderstandings to a minimum?

Coz personally, I'd love to sort this out. I'd love to find the Stone of Rosetta on this one. I've done some discussing with Jeno about this on my profile, and by trying not to get defensive (though we failed several times and had to clarify our intents to prevent a complete misrepresentation/interpretation of the facts), we at least got some stuff cleared out but I haven't had a chance to with a Fe-dom yet. The thing is, to do this, you have to have some faith and trust and give the other the benefit of the doubt, and even then it's hard, I've noticed.

Still, it would be worth the head aches and frustration I feel.

I will watch with interest to see if this happens.

I think the difficulty lies in seeing each function in isolation, since in reality they play together like a orchestra, and you therefore encounter difficulty trying to hear only one instrument at a time.

Or imagine your body as the metaphor. As a child, we learn the names of our body parts, and start to see them as separate entities. "Here are your hands. These are the fingers." But they are not really separated, they are coordinated and work as a whole unit, not independent of each other. When one muscle tenses, another relaxes. Neurons fire all over the body, sending signals. We breathe. Blink unconsciously all the while. You get the idea ... And each one us, in a different bodies, in different environments, with different upbringings, different cultures if you will, all trying to appreciate what it is like to see the world from another's point-of-view.

The dialogue is the major benefit. At least it helps us appreciate the other, if not fully understand them.