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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yes. This.

    Heavy Fi users can come across very selfishly at times. They've reached their conclusion based on an internal values system, and don't really care how that conclusion will affect others. They feel like in order to be "true to themselves," they have no choice but insist upon x, and if you don't respect their wishes without question, you're some sort of oppressor.
    Heavy Fe also comes across as selfish.

    I actually have fairly well developed Fe, and so I understand it. I was raised in the South as a female, which is practically the Fe-dom capital of the United States. Fe can and does make life more pleasant. I missed an Fe dom atmosphere when I moved to a bigger city and was surrounded by a more T mentality.

    I even go to church - albeit a liberal church - and believe in participating in activities which directly serve others. Is this not Fe behavior?

    However, Fe has it's dark side like every other cognitive function. I seriously think that's all that's being argued here: it isn't all giving and sharing and hugs. Sometimes it's intrusive and judgemental and leech-y.

    Sure, Fi can be selfish. But don't forget that Fe users are sometimes so focused on what they think is so right for the group, or so socially acceptable, that they end up hurting individuals. Or they can wander off into codependency land, which is in reality (no matter how it may appear on the shallow surface) just as selfish as having a stubborn attachment to inner core values despite the wishes of others.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yes. This.

    Heavy Fi users can come across very selfishly at times. They've reached their conclusion based on an internal values system, and don't really care how that conclusion will affect others. They feel like in order to be "true to themselves," they have no choice but insist upon x, and if you don't respect their wishes without question, you're some sort of oppressor.
    At least it's usually pretty transparent and coherent (even when it's illogical and laughable). My problem with Fe is how it treats deviance from the norm, and how it's so fluid. A value system that is dependent on other people seems almost un-addressable.


    I prefer transparent selfishness to fluid kindness.

  3. #63
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    At least it's usually pretty transparent and coherent (even when it's illogical and laughable). My problem with Fe is how it treats deviance from the norm, and how it's so fluid. A value system that is dependent on other people seems almost un-addressable.


    I prefer transparent selfishness to fluid kindness.
    How can it be transparent when it is an introverted function? Fi is an internal value system, based within the individual. Unless the individual shares what these values are, it is anything but transparent.

  4. #64
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamp View Post
    If I am understanding it correctly, Fe is pretty interesting because it is both sincere but also aimed at indirectly encouraging an individual to act a certain way. Seems like Fe, for example, alters my mood to make me more or less likely to do something. So instead of a friend saying "yes, I think you should do this", that friend would instead make me feel comfortable about doing something.

    I think what I am saying is that I do not notice another's Fe modifying my actions until I do something, whereas with a direct suggestion I seem to realize immediately that I am considering acting outside of my 'comfort zone'.
    Although simplistic, i see the Fe function on a scale. Some people have it more than others or use it more than others etc.

    to me Fe in general is persuasiveness.

    Low Fe is being cordial
    Medium Fe is exercising normal social customs and pleasantries
    High Fe is manipulative. Doing a superficial nice thing but secretly expecting something in return, then coming back to collect.

    as INTP, Fe is in the 4th slot and I'm noticing how my behaviors make use of the Fe. The standard form is low Fe, but if need be, I can kick it a notch or two for influencing or persuading, just before manipulation.

    It's very interesting.

  5. #65
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    This thread has convinced me to start a cult. Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Here are some group norms and values I mindlessly adhere to and expect others to as well: [list]
    When I was a mechanic, there was an ISFP boy working in the garage. I knew about him from outside sources before he knew anything about me, and I knew how horribly abused and stepped on he was. Some of the other boys in the garage treated him like a weirdo, and to be honest, he was a shifty, flighty, quiet thing, no doubt from the years of brutality he suffered. I'm not really a touchy-feely person, but I was known to pat people on the back, or give a hug when needed, or a touch on the arm.

    He was sitting on the concrete apron outside the garage on day, all alone. I was returning from a break and as I walked past him, I said quietly, "Hello, X" and dropped my hand to touch his shoulder or head, and he flinched. Like, ducked down and almost cowered. I stopped in my tracks and we stared at each other a moment, and when he saw it was me, he smiled, gave this nervous little laugh and said, "Oh, it's just you, Pink..." and I thought, "Dear heavens, what have they done to you..."

    He was pleasant enough when you spoke to him, very polite actually. I remember immediately taking notice of him, and knowing he needed help, some shielding. Funny thing is, my ESFJ male friend picked up on it at the same time. The two of us "knew" how to speak to him. I'm still very admiring of my ESFJ friend because he was so kind to ISFP boy, and helpful without being twee or intrusive. ESFJ was a Marine, and very tough, and I think ISFP, who only knew abusive males, responded well to that level of thoughtfulness and unintimidating masculinity. ESFJ was very patient in general and saw X for what he was.

    Between the two of us, we conditioned X to being casually touched without fear, and even enjoy it, like a real human being, happy to see us, relaxed in the environment instead of rigid and hunted by anxiety. I knew he didn't eat regularly, so after a big student body meeting (I was one of the campus "senators"), I had leftover cupcakes in a box. I brought them down for the boys, but went looking for ISFP in particular. I found him on the backstairs by himself as usual, and stuffed cupcakes into him like a baby chick. He seemed very pleased that I cared, and I really did care.

    He was bullied, and I (and ESFJ friend) didn't like it and we stood up to it. It was WRONG to pick on that boy. That wasn't just a societal observation, it was a human one. I hate bullies and cowards.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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  6. #66
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    How can it be transparent when it is an introverted function? Fi is an internal value system, based within the individual. Unless the individual shares what these values are, it is anything but transparent.
    I was referring to the supposed displays of selfishness. There's no real gain in faking selfishness, so I'm assuming if it comes across that way so often, it's because that's how people feel.

  7. #67
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    That wasn't just a societal observation, it was a human one. I hate bullies and cowards.
    This is quintessential Fe usage and I love it. I love that I have it, too. I'm glad I don't have it as a Dom function though or else I would go buck wild on 99% of the people that I come across on a daily basis. I don't know how you do it, Pink. Hats off to you!

  8. #68
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    This is quintessential Fe usage and I love it.
    It was remarkable to me how my ESFJ friend used his top two functions himself in contrast to mine. I really deferred to him in these matters because he was dead on about certain people and how to apply yourself to them without drawing offense or being intrusive.

    I think ESFJs have a sixth sense about social behaviors. And I can always see the influence of their tertiary Ne operating. When we both saw ISFP, we both knew what had to be done, but I think my reaction was "That boy is abused and needs someone to be kind to him" and ESFJ friend was "That boy isn't beyond reach YET and must be acted on..."

    I think some of the other guys were weirded out by him or even fearful about him because he was so strange. ESFJ *knew* he wasn't dangerous by some unseen sign, but that he *could* be pushed to that point if we didn't intervene.

    I knew right then why some people gravitate to ESFJs. He was tall and disciplined, made things feel safe, and he was smart and humorous, and nobody was going to get mistreated with him around. On the other hand, he had the devil in him and could be quite wicked and awful. lol

    Watching him put the ISFP boy through "therapy" was amazing really. It was so subtle and friendly and kind-hearted, and more importantly, needed and wanted by the boy. I was really proud to be friends with ESFJ at that moment. He didn't let X get picked on while nudging him gently to come out of his shell and engage his environment.

    Once my ENFP sister found out about X, on her swings by the garage en route to the welding labs, she'd stop and pat him and chat lightly and sometimes feed him too. So Fi, to me, can be just as caring and caretaking as Fe.

    I love that I have it, too. I'm glad I don't have it as a Dom function though or else I would go buck wild on 99% of the people that I come across on a daily basis.
    I like the way Fe appears in ENTPs. I liked the affection and low level slow-burn, like it was diluted just enough to be heating.

    INTPs too when displaying their Fe are very kind and caring.

    But being Fe primary is like being on fire, at least for me. I can be calm and still be smoldering. Having said that, I don't run people to death or make them responsible for my feelings. I'm frequently claimed by the intense "burning" type INFJs in my circle of friends.

    I don't know how you do it, Pink. Hats off to you!
    *slurp* YUMMAY. Jenocyde Fe-flavored.
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  9. #69
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    It's crazy how slick the ESFJs are with it. My ESFJ sister in law can really smooth things between me and my STJ brother, when we go at it. We're like cats and dogs. But she takes one look at the situation and instantly diffuses it.

    She also is the only person on the planet who can get my mom to shut up and still remain in good graces with her. Manipulation in the best possible sense of the word (I don't believe it's always negative - I build, solder and manipulate objects on a daily basis and am thanked for it!)

    Sometimes I get irritated because I would lay the smack down properly while she takes the easy way out, but she gets the job done and is loved for it. I can always sense that she is holding back and I don't necessarily admire that trait in the moment. But in the long run, she makes it work for her. When I get on a war path, she will interrupt me and do things her sweet way and save me from looking like a maniac, even though I wouldn't mind looking like one. But she sees how in the big picture, it wouldn't benefit me to lose my cool. When I am in Fe mode, nothing else matters and I can't step back.

    She is also tall and beautiful and quite mesmerizing. She is truly a sight to behold. Hmm, I should really call her and tell her these things.

  10. #70
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    Fe is useful. VERY useful.

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