User Tag List

First 2345614 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 263

  1. #31
    garbage
    Guest

    Default

    I don't particularly care for the concept of group norms and values, and I hate unexpected and unwarranted expectations being placed upon me. To the extent that one's definition of Fe encompasses those, I'm wary of it.

  2. #32
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post

    I am starting to have an issue with the terms healthy and unhealthy though. Who determines that? And isn't it possible that within the context of the same human being you can find perceived healthy and unhealthy traits? I don't think we always need to add such a disclaimer... I don't believe that people are inherently either good or evil - and healthy or unhealthy.
    Do people get hurt? Unhealthy. Otherwise healthy. So who determines when it is healthy or unhealthy? Other people and their ability to deal with things!
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #33
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    5,514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    I don't particularly care for the concept of group norms and values, and I hate unexpected and unwarranted expectations being placed upon me. To the extent that one's definition of Fe encompasses those, I'm wary of it.
    That sounds very pretty. You're a free-thinker when you use such a phrase.

    Let's break down this concept of "group norms and values."

    Here are some group norms and values I mindlessly adhere to and expect others to as well:

    Don't kill
    Don't steal
    Don't lie to people
    Don't cheat
    Don't rape people
    Don't molest children
    Wash your hands after you leave the bathroom
    Cover you mouth when you cough
    If you're on public transportation and someone in need (handicapped, elderly, pregnant woman) needs a seat, get the hell up and give it to them

    And honestly, I really wouldn't even care about someone sleeping with a close relative as long as they're consenting adults. It's disgusting as hell, but I'm OK with that.

    Can you please name some group norms and values that are so oppressive that you feel you need to broadly categorize them under the iron fist of Fe?

    ETA: The concept of group norms and values occur on both the micro and macro level. What I just listed where norms on the macro level. On the micro level, which is within your immediate and specific group these norms may be different. You immediate culture may be that of people from the Southern United states, North Africa or South Indian or where ever.

    If you are talking about group norms and values specific to your immediate culture than fine. I could care less if someone wears white after Labor Day or a fuchsia wedding dress. If you want to rebel against the micro norms and values of your localized culture you do you. But then realize there's probably another culture who values exactly what you're rebelling against so then it's almost to me like you're a rebel without a cause, just going the opposite direction because you feel like it. Which, I just shrug at because non-conformity is the new conformity. If people want to be a chaos-agent for no other reason than to be chaotic, yeah I don't really get that.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #34
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6 so/sx
    Posts
    2,077

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Here are some group norms and values I mindlessly adhere to and expect others to as well:

    Don't kill
    Don't steal
    Don't lie to people
    Don't cheat
    Don't rape people
    Don't molest children
    Wash your hands after you leave the bathroom
    Cover you mouth when you cough
    If you're on public transportation and someone in need (handicapped, elderly, pregnant woman) needs a seat, get the hell up and give it to them
    DICTATOR! Sheesh!

    And honestly, I really wouldn't even care about someone sleeping with a close relative as long as they're consenting adults. It's disgusting as hell, but I'm OK with that.
    Oh come on! That's how the South populated itself!

    Can you please name some group norms and values that are so oppressive that you feel you need to broadly categorize them under the iron fist of Fe?
    Seriously. I'd love to know as well.

    The Fe bashing is getting whinier by the moment.

  5. #35
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    intj
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    2,220

    Default

    I feel like there's more complaints on behalf of Fe ("I'm so tired of Fe bashing") than there are complaints against it in this thread. Although people have referenced complaints about it elsewhere on the forum, so I'll assume this is a common thing. I think Greed's comment was a comment on Fe users who push their values on others ("To the extent that one's definition of Fe encompasses those"), not a generalization that Fe always does so.
    So what I'm wondering, is where else we can take this conversation? How can non Fe-doms best learn to appreciate Fe in instances where it isn't meant manipulatively, but is genuine?
    "There's no need to be embarrassed about it, Mr. Spock. It happens to the birds and the bees!"

  6. #36
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,440

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    That sounds very pretty. You're a free-thinker when you use such a phrase.

    Let's break down this concept of "group norms and values."

    Here are some group norms and values I mindlessly adhere to and expect others to as well:

    Don't kill
    Don't steal
    Don't lie to people
    Don't cheat
    Don't rape people
    Don't molest children
    Wash your hands after you leave the bathroom
    Cover you mouth when you cough
    If you're on public transportation and someone in need (handicapped, elderly, pregnant woman) needs a seat, get the hell up and give it to them

    ETA: The concept of group norms and values occur on both the micro and macro level. What I just listed where norms on the macro level. On the micro level, which is within your immediate and specific group these norms may be different. You immediate culture may be that of people from the Southern United states, North Africa or South Indian or where ever.

    If you are talking about group norms and values specific to your immediate culture than fine.
    Most if not all of those are actually universal values, and thus more covered by Fi. Yes, there may be "micro and "macro", but something all groups would agree on by nature would be universal.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  7. #37
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    5,514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Most if not all of those are actually universal values, and thus more covered by Fi. Yes, there may be "micro and "macro", but something all groups would agree on by nature would be universal.
    Sure, I'll even go with that.

    So if that is the case, what exactly are the Fe created values that people find so oppressive? I bet they vary so greatly that you could find to Fe users completely clashing on their value set.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #38
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,658

    Default

    Not so much the values as it is maybe the execution/social norms set by them?

    For me, for instance the whole 'you cannot visit someone without bringing like a plant or something thing', or the 'you must send a birthday card to show you care', 'you cannot decline an invitation to visit their new home twice in a row'. Social obligations, basically. Things that are supposed to come from those values, from your heart and are one valid expression of those values, but somehow lose their value because they are enforced that way by society. If you don't follow the prescribed method of society, you often are considered 'rude' or 'inconsiderate'. That's a shame, I feel
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #39
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,440

    Default

    Yes, basically things like that that are not universal, but just agreed upon by a group.

    Based on Mark Bruzon's concept (Fundamental Nature of the MBTI), Fe is tied to a local area matrix, while Fi is tied to a wide area matrix. So Fe deals more in specifics (like a specific group), while Fi is both universal and personal (as individuals tap into the universal).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  10. #40
    garbage
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    ...
    You read way, way too much into my post. You know what I meant, and you know that you knew what I meant. You're being nitpicky for the sake of tearing down 'one of the anti-Extroverted Feeler non-conformist free spirit blind rebels who thinks he's better than everyone else.' That is, you're tearing down some archetype that I'm not a part of.

    Did you see where I said "insofar as.."? As in.. "to the degree that which.."? Too much, and it's just smothering. To me. I'm wary of it.

    Covering norms at a basic level is fine. It's appreciated. It's necessary. I don't have to elaborate on that, because that much is obvious.


    In order to deconstruct a concept or talk about pretty much anything, you've got to get a good, solid, working definition of it.

    I got the term "group norms and values" straight out of this Functions of Type book that's sitting right in front of me. To that end, it lists "Judge behaviors according to group values" and "Objectively educate other people about appropriate people" as Extraverted Feeling skills. The "subskills" that fall underneath them just seem irrelevant, unnecessary, and slightly disconcerting to me, so that colored the answer that I just gave.

    So, if you want to rally against some crazy non-conformist rebels-without-a-clue, I guess you can start with Jungian authors.

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] Are you "full of yourself?"
    By ygolo in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 08-04-2010, 08:49 PM
  2. Are you wary of Te?
    By Virtual ghost in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 05-07-2010, 05:44 PM
  3. What are you proud of?
    By BlueSky in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-24-2009, 12:08 AM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-17-2009, 01:20 PM
  5. Are you afraid of water?
    By maliafee in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 06-16-2009, 11:00 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO