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  1. #231
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    I remember one time I had a discussion with an Fe dominant about lying. Whereupon he--talking purely theoretically, of course --mentioned that truly great liars don't even bother with manipulating the narrative of the sequence of events, but merely cast doubt on the motivation of the actors. That's some chilling shit, and an idea that as a Te-dom would have never even occurred to me. A person to whom that is an innate concept frightens me in a deep, hind brain, "burn it with fire!" kinda way.
    That might be chilling to an ENTJ, who are often bad at hiding their real motivations.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  2. #232
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    I remember one time I had a discussion with an Fe dominant about lying. Whereupon he--talking purely theoretically, of course --mentioned that truly great liars don't even bother with manipulating the narrative of the sequence of events, but merely cast doubt on the motivation of the actors. That's some chilling shit, and an idea that as a Te-dom would have never even occurred to me. A person to whom that is an innate concept frightens me in a deep, hind brain, "burn it with fire!" kinda way.
    It's also how the Big Lie works - it's not about the information per se, as much as it is the people disseminating the information. If a no-name schlub on the street starts making wild claims, you'll easily dismiss it, since they have no standing to make such a claim. If respected authorities make these claims, even if you know it's not true, you already risk a whole lot in the way of prestige and respect by contradicting them.

    Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

    Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

    Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

    Fe power at its most subversive

  3. #233
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am not Fe but I do experience chronic illness and when I tell people around me that I am not feeling well, I am looking for them to understand me, why I might be quiet or slow or unable to do something, I am afraid of not measuring up, letting someone's expectations down...but rarely do I get true understanding. Mostly I get a load of heavy sympathy at first and then serious compassion fatigue later.

    BTW, if she's a long-term "friend" what does it matter if she's feeling blue or scared and wants some attention? RA can be hell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    It's interesting to see how the answers contrast.

    Ne-Monster (Fi):
    Focuses on how the behavior makes her personally feel. She assumes she correctly empathizes (which she might! we lack all the info), and then figures out what she would do in her friend's shoes. Since her behavior doesn't match her friend's, she grows annoyed.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    She is looking for your empathy - a verbal expression of it, and what makes you think you must withhold this from her? You say she is a long-term friend, so presumably you share a certain level of confidence in each other and she is opening up to you for a reason.

    As others have expressed, I am concerned that you make a judgement that her pain and case is mild. How is that relevant to measure out your compassion anyway? A child skins their knee. You still give them a kiss and a band-aid to feel better. It is your expression of empathy at the time of acute fear or pain that does the healing more than anything else.

    Perhaps you require additional information about Rheumatoid Arthritis in order to provide context for what your friend faces. RA is a chronic progressive auto-immune disease that will never go away and has the potential to disable her at some point. Here is more info to help you understand: Understanding Causes and Risks of Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA). And as heart says, she may be frightened by her illness or the idea of IV infusion and just needs to talk about it, to reassure herself or to someone who might be able to reassure her. I get that you feel like you would be imposing on others to discuss such issues, but if you really were burdened by something, would you open to no one?

    You wonder why she doesn't feel like an "attention whore" discussing personal issues - I get you are using this phrase to be a bit provocative, but this would make me inclined to believe one of two scenarios about you: 1.) You have never been seriously ill and actually needed to reach out to others or accept help or 2.) You have been ill and no one paid any particular attention to your needs at that time so you have concluded that you must go it alone. Perhaps her expression of illness makes you want to repel her somewhat as she represents the reality of illness and ultimately our own mortality. Or perhaps you are tired of people in general gravitating to you and abusing your receptivity to listen. I don't know - you tell me.

    But I can tell you that you are making too many assumptions, and even your assumptions are flawed in the level of response you could be providing to this person. I would like to see you amp up the empathy for her. Did you consider that you might be the only person that can bring her some peace of mind on this? You have the power here to help her feel a bit better, so why not?

    Share with me why you feel annoyed to hear about her issues, and I would certainly love to dig deeper on it.
    Fabulous Udog.
    Okay so the reason i put this one up is not to be classified as mean but to be very honest about what I perceive and get an idea of what it is that she is trying to convey-so help me understand the communication but please withhold judgements. It isnt turning into a particularly good example.

    I have known her for years. I cannot experience her physiological response to pain. I do understand my own very well. What I see is a long term complaint of mild pain and an escalation of medications in an attempt to be totally pain free without an understanding that sometimes life is painful and you have to learn to live with that.

    For me, I can do nothing to relieve her pain. However to see her in what I perceive as pain makes me hurt for her. So then I feel guilt and more emo pain that there is nothing I can do to remedy her situation. I can supply condolences and love, but not correct the issue. My Fi emo pain increases cyclically.

    So to bring it to my attention and then await sympathy on multiple occasions is almost emo vampire like. At some point I stop feeling sympathy, turn off Fi, as I am tired of being unable to address her issue in any productive way, emo or otherwise.

    I guess I have seen folks suffer much, much worse than what she is suffering and not seek this sort of emo affirmation. It feels like a tool beeing used on me.

    and you are right peacebaby.

  4. #234
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Why is Te so much more palatable in society as a means of influence than Fe?
    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I think people accept the use of Te in the corporate environment more so than Fe, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Te is much easier to read for all types, less intimately tied to our natural selection (humans are social animals, not necessarily organized ones), and much easier to work around if not your particular strong point (there's always a way to beat the system/rules are made to be broken).

    The expression of Fe power is much harder to circumvent without risking personal detriment, as your standing within the community is diminished.

    Of course, this is all assuming we come from a Western, individualistic mindset. A more collectivistic mindset would likely see it as the complete opposite.
    Interesting as Te works much better in my corporation than Fe. We have about 80% thinkers to 20% feelers. The few Fe doms we have are actually very counterproductive and cause many problems as they encourage group harmony at the cost of project progress. Corporations are about producing something which means projects that must be completed on timelines. Often people must be driven to complete those projects. People will be unhappy at times, but open,critical, honest communication is essential.

    Also in the last few days I have come across two ISFJs who play roles in my organization. Everytime a question arises the solution differs depending upon the individuals involved in the problem, not the facts of the problem. Both are passive agressive and waste company time and money-thus hurting my customer and coworkers-with thier behavior. It is inefficient.

    In a thinker rich enviornment, Fe becomes less and less useful and easier to circumvent with logic.

  5. #235
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    I have known her for years. I cannot experience her physiological response to pain. I do understand my own very well. What I see is a long term complaint of mild pain and an escalation of medications in an attempt to be totally pain free without an understanding that sometimes life is painful and you have to learn to live with that.
    It seems like you're searching for understanding here, rather than feeling unnerved by Fe. Perhaps there's an analogy I can make here. Think about a small slight that occurred a long time ago. Something insignificant, but still somewhat painful. Now, imagine that this pain didn't eventually just fade away, but was constantly persistent and would never go away, like a song stuck in your head that won't ever stop playing. After a while, you would put up with it, but at the same time, something is distinctly wrong, and you know it. After a while, a terrifying realization hits you: you're never going to be the same again; this pain is never going away. So you start grasping at what you can - medication, therapy, acupuncture, chiropractic, you name it, just for the chance to be normal again. Many of these work for a time, but they all eventually wear off and the pain returns. This mild annoyance, something that really doesn't bother you that much, but something you cannot control. You cannot control your own body anymore. And each slight twinge or memory is a reminder of this fact.

    It's not the pain that is so life changing; it's the fact that it's chronic. It's the fact that it will be there until the day you die. And no one seems to understand why you seem so upset over what you admit to be mild pain.

    She feels alone and helpless, and really needs someone to be there for her. She sees that you're a kind person at heart, and talks to you because you won't reject her outwith. Of course, Fe means that she isn't going to burden you with all the background details - she just hopes that you'll sympathize with her, because you're a nice person.

    Fe is all about the golden rule - the ethic of reciprocality. You do something not for your own purposes, but because if you were in their position, you would want someone to do the same for you.

  6. #236
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It seems like you're searching for understanding here, rather than feeling unnerved by Fe. Perhaps there's an analogy I can make here. Think about a small slight that occurred a long time ago. Something insignificant, but still somewhat painful. Now, imagine that this pain didn't eventually just fade away, but was constantly persistent and would never go away, like a song stuck in your head that won't ever stop playing. After a while, you would put up with it, but at the same time, something is distinctly wrong, and you know it. After a while, a terrifying realization hits you: you're never going to be the same again; this pain is never going away. So you start grasping at what you can - medication, therapy, acupuncture, chiropractic, you name it, just for the chance to be normal again. Many of these work for a time, but they all eventually wear off and the pain returns. This mild annoyance, something that really doesn't bother you that much, but something you cannot control. You cannot control your own body anymore. And each slight twinge or memory is a reminder of this fact.

    It's not the pain that is so life changing; it's the fact that it's chronic. It's the fact that it will be there until the day you die. And no one seems to understand why you seem so upset over what you admit to be mild pain.

    She feels alone and helpless, and really needs someone to be there for her. She sees that you're a kind person at heart, and talks to you because you won't reject her outwith. Of course, Fe means that she isn't going to burden you with all the background details - she just hopes that you'll sympathize with her, because you're a nice person.

    Fe is all about the golden rule - the ethic of reciprocality. You do something not for your own purposes, but because if you were in their position, you would want someone to do the same for you.
    I have a collegen disorder that causes chronic pain-akin to tendonitus. It varies in severity and sometimes is only slightly bothersome, and sometimes my hips hurt enough that I limp. Running helps very much, but the next day can be very painful. Right now both of my arms hurt quite a bit and my shoulder is bothering me. It is here forever. But I dont go seeking others emotional comfort for it. I dont even mention it, and mostly I ignore it. I find factual information, treat it the best I can, and move on. I suppose because it is a constant, I dont need emo support from others.

    I think for her perhaps what is worse is the fear the condition will worsen. She has anxiety concerning the future. Another aspect is that she has been pushed significantly as her performance at work is not that great just due to her lack of interest in engaging and digging in. She is strictly a nine-to-five person and it has been noticed. So after being criticized, she will then show up and tell me how the pain wont go away and she needs another generation of meds. I feel a bit used here...

  7. #237
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    Okay so the reason i put this one up is not to be classified as mean but to be very honest about what I perceive and get an idea of what it is that she is trying to convey-so help me understand the communication but please withhold judgements. It isnt turning into a particularly good example.
    It is a frank and honest assessment and brings much value. I don't think you are mean, I appreciate you "telling it as you feel it".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    For me, I can do nothing to relieve her pain. However to see her in what I perceive as pain makes me hurt for her. So then I feel guilt and more emo pain that there is nothing I can do to remedy her situation. I can supply condolences and love, but not correct the issue. My Fi emo pain increases cyclically..
    I hear you

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    So to bring it to my attention and then await sympathy on multiple occasions is almost emo vampire like. At some point I stop feeling sympathy, turn off Fi, as I am tired of being unable to address her issue in any productive way, emo or otherwise.
    You feel like there is nothing you can do to fix this for her, to take away her pain as you wish you could, so you feel like you have to shut it out because it is too much, it is draining you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    I guess I have seen folks suffer much, much worse than what she is suffering and not seek this sort of emo affirmation. It feels like a tool beeing used on me.
    It may very well be. I think the key component here is how to address her needs while still affirming and honoring your own feelings and maintaining your own energy level.

    Here are a few thoughts that might help:

    1.) I think as Fi dom we sure can feel like we are "emo-pinned" to people. Meaning, when someone comes to us and needs to talk, we can feel trapped by them and like we can't interrupt or make a get-away. They need us, but if we listen too much, we overwhelm ourselves and this leads to exhaustion. What I do when feeling like this is to take the initiative to break the moment. What I mean by that is let's imagine your friend coming to your desk. She is talking and you are actively listening, mirroring back and empathizing as you see appropriate. Seize a moment in there and take control back - for example, there's a moment where you say "Jane, you must feel overwhelmed, but it seems like you are handling everything so well. Let's take a tea break." Or, "Walk me to the elevator so I can deliver this to Jim." (Insert real smiley in convo LOL!) This helps maintain control. You can give her everything she needs, but you can end this convo when it is right for you too, without any sense of cutting her off, and without you draining your battery. Watch ENFJ's - they do this brilliantly.

    2.) Leave a small token from time to time that you are thinking of her. It sounds as though she is the type to appreciate a little note to say "Thinking of you, hope your treatments are going well." Or a short e-mail. This spreads out your energy in manageable doses and will help balance out the convos.

    3.) Find out more about RA. This will enable you to empathize more specifically and meaningfully.

    4.) And too, you have the right to set boundaries. If there are days where it is just too much you are allowed to say, "Jane, I appreciate you are having a challenging time and I really feel for you. I am just feeling a bit overwhelmed myself today and would love to chat about this a little later." Then stand up and walk her back to her desk or whatever. You are allowed to take care of yourself too.

    I can certainly appreciate what it feels like to offer up a pair of ears and an open heart. Take care of yourself in the middle of there. When you feel awash in the feelings of others all the time, you do need space to recharge and be fresh. Nature is great for me that way.

    And it took me a LONG time to learn how to do this, so just remember, you are in control and you can direct others.

  8. #238
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This is the same coworker who when I said my mother had breast cancer she instantly remarked about a pile of folders on the desk, "Those look like a stack of rainbows!" Don't go there about her being immature because I don't think so.
    Proteanmix I had to think on this a few days.

    My best guess is that when you said this the women panicked. She perceived you were in a great deal of pain, she emo mirrored the pain, Fi had a brief meltdown of sorts and she was sort of hit with instant agony.

    Since we see the world through our own experiences perhaps she tried to grope for a way to say back to convey back that she has been where you have been, however she came up dry. Likely she gaped for a second and just spat out the first crazy Ne-Fi thing that popped into her head. Changing the subject was also a way of blocking the emo pain she was feeling, by replacing it with silly humor.

    Total screw up but maybe this is what she did.

  9. #239
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    2.) Leave a small token from time to time that you are thinking of her. It sounds as though she is the type to appreciate a little note to say "Thinking of you, hope your treatments are going well." Or a short e-mail. This spreads out your energy in manageable doses and will help balance out the convos.
    these were great thoughts, thanks! This one especially I think would be very good...

  10. #240
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ For you, I should add I would just be careful these are not misinterpreted in a romantic way.

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