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  1. #161
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    Amargith, your boss sounds like a control freak. There's nothing really to understand there. Control freaks need to feel in control. They don't trust others to do things "right." I've experienced this as a negative trait in some Fe-doms, especially ones under stress, in a bad mood, or just generally unhealthy. Then again, not all control freakiness comes from Fe, it can easily come from Te, or even Fi ...I just think it might be Fe in this particular case.

    Punishment for failure to conform can take many forms, etc. seems...a bit harsh and judgemental. It really depends on how far it goes. I mean, if someone is constantly contemplating their navel and won't keep a job, then by all means, kick them in the butt.

    But sometimes people need professional help. There is social anxiety, depression, PTSD, and grief to consider in some cases.

    Other times there's not even anything wrong - they just are a person who needs more time alone. Period. Trying to change them is crazily counterproductive.

  2. #162
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Default Example for Amar

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Fi and Fe process values in a completely different order:

    Fi:
    1. Internalizes and processes
    2. Extroverts to test - highest vulnerability

    Fe
    1. Extroverts and processes
    2. Internalizes to test - highest vulnerability

    The basic source of misunderstanding is that when Fi/Fe align (i.e. both extroverting), they are at completely different stages of processing. The strength of one function is the weakness of another, so there's always one party that feels highly vulnerable and off center.
    Examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    My girlfriend only thinks she understands how I feel, but she doesn't. This pain is crippling and she should know that I can't be expected to do <blank>, while I feel this way. What happened was so wrong, I can't believe she doesn't agree. There's no point in explaining because she'll never understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    My boyfriend needs to understand how I (or we) feel, but he doesn't so I'll show him. <Cue verbal lash out> "You need to stop being so selfish and think how what you're doing affects me and my family. We needed you to do <blank> and you didn't! That is so wrong. I cannot believe you didn't see that. This conversation is pointless because you don't understand."
    Instead of cultivating my own examples, I'll just use yours. I can see this playing out in so many different ways, so this is just one example.

    Fi user: Step 1 Introversion: I'm stressed, and need to go into my head to handle the pain and work it out.

    Fe user: Step 1 Extroversion: Something isn't right with him, but what? We need to talk about this and figure it out. "Hey Fi user, what's going on?"

    Fi user: Step 1: "I don't want to talk about it." I haven't even figured out what is going on yet - how can I possibly be expected to talk about it?

    Fe user: Step 1: I need to know what you are thinking/feeling. Lashes out, in accordance to Iwakar's example.

    Fi user: Having been forcibly extracted from his head, engages Step 2 Extroversion and Vulnerability. To protect himself, he enlists opposing Te. "I'm in more pain than you can possibly know! Without knowing what I'm going through [aka having all the data], how can you possibly relate and tell me what to do?! If you cared, you'd just leave me alone! This is all your fault anyway, because if you didn't say/do <action>, then I wouldn't feel <emotion>!" Then, after the outbreak, retreats back to Step 1 and surrounds himself with an impenetrable brick wall.

    Fe user: No longer able to engage in Step 1 extroversion, is either forced to find others to talk with or to engage Step 2 Introversion and become vulnerable. Their thoughts grow cloudy and dark, building upon themselves.

    Fi user: Meanwhile, Fi user is happy to be left alone. He sorts through his problems, and having done his healing process, is now on comfortable ground. He willingly and perhaps even happily engages in Step 2 extroversion.

    Fe user: Having been cut off from their area of strength, is now in a dark place and isn't ready to re-engage in Step 1 extroversion, or if they are, re-engages it with all these new problems that must now be addressed.

    Hmm... do you think the Fi user is ready to deal with a new influx of emotion?

    ... and so on and so on...

  3. #163
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Looks pretty impressive. Good work, Udog!

    One question: I dunno about you, but when I get stuck in my head and cannot actually figure it out myself, I turn to my SO to ramble and vent, and sort out my thoughts that way. How does that fit in?
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  4. #164
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    This thread has gone from a one star to five!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #165
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Looks pretty impressive. Good work, Udog!

    One question: I dunno about you, but when I get stuck in my head and cannot actually figure it out myself, I turn to my SO to ramble and vent, and sort out my thoughts that way. How does that fit in?
    My example was admittedly INFP biased, as Fi plays a different role with ENFPs. The ENFP is an extrovert first, and under stress will use Ne/Te to deal with the problem, while letting the bruised Fi hide safely underneath. Since the core of the issue, the bruised Fi, isn't being dealt with, Ne/Te is being tainted by their hurt feelings, and voila - a passive aggressive ENFP.

    That's primarly a guess, though. Let me ask you this:

    When something really knocks you flat on your feet and disorients you, do you go to the source ready to expose the feelings that were just hurt, or do you go to the source to understand and perhaps throw down a little Te smack down?

  6. #166
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    when I expose my feelings-which is rare-if they are hurt I will lash out with Te smack down, then retreat and analyze the situation to understand what went wrong.

  7. #167
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Problem is that she already gives me 'lists' to keep tabs on me and she's not even supposed to be my boss, just my collegue who just happens to have seniority. I respect her claim and her vast knowledge as I'm nowhere near her level, but it does aggrevate me on occasion, I have to admit. I cannot help but feel that she considers me like a child she has to raise. But maybe that's just coz she means well? Or is she in fact annoyed at the fact that I am not as efficient in her eyes?
    Yikes! This isn't even a case of micromanagement... it's beyond that. I feel for you.

    I'm not sure whether she just means well or whether she finds your work process unsatisfactory. But in the case of a ESFJ boss I had, she does that for everyone... check on your progress, hang around and do work with you for a bit etc. Now does your colleague do that for everybody or just for you? Even if it's just for you, she can simply see you as a special tutee... so it's difficult to say exactly... but chances are I don't think she's annoyed at you.
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  8. #168
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Without a good use of Fe.. I doubt I would be able to detect social norms,
    If something's bothering me.. I feel the need to talk about it right away.
    If someone says that he or she needs to mull things over, I usually end up feeling more paranoid- since I too often feel that there is a way-too obvious answer to the conflict or that compromise can only be achieved by a fair discussion..
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  9. #169
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    My example was admittedly INFP biased, as Fi plays a different role with ENFPs. The ENFP is an extrovert first, and under stress will use Ne/Te to deal with the problem, while letting the bruised Fi hide safely underneath. Since the core of the issue, the bruised Fi, isn't being dealt with, Ne/Te is being tainted by their hurt feelings, and voila - a passive aggressive ENFP.

    That's primarly a guess, though. Let me ask you this:

    When something really knocks you flat on your feet and disorients you, do you go to the source ready to expose the feelings that were just hurt, or do you go to the source to understand and perhaps throw down a little Te smack down?

    If they let me go, I'll retreat and lick my wounds, and mull it over. But as soon as the worst is over and I cannot figure out what happened, I will go to my SO who acts like a sounding board on this and rant at him about what happened and how I feel about it..which allows me to sort through things even more. Things I cannot figure out myself, he himself will then address using his Ni+Te. I don't go on a Te rampage without his say-so, unless I can figure Fi out myself and feel justified to do so...and even I sometimes doublecheck to make sure I didn't misunderstand somehow.
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  10. #170
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Fe is the only thing that can counter Fe. For example, I had the lovely pleasure of jumping into my friend's car while she and her boyfriend were in the middle of a huge fight. Mind you, this could get disastrous very quickly. Her boyfriend was very Ti dominant, and as such couldn't see why she was so upset (something I would agree on at an earlier age). Of course, this just set her off worse, Fe dominant as she was. It was only when I reminded her of how selfish she was acting that she was able to calm down enough to where an actual discussion could start.

    It was nice, too, because understanding the obligatory nature of Fe made it clear what was going on - she was upset because she was putting so much effort into the relationship, and she didn't feel like he was putting enough, nor was he recognizing how much effort she was putting into it. Of course, it was hard to put into words, since she didn't want to seem ungrateful for what he had done up to this point. Once the idea was out, his Ti made it a lot easier to dissect the issue after the initial reservations.

    I get into trouble because I know the mutual obligations and expect people to follow them - it's just that I can't remember what to do half the time. This is something I'm working on.

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