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  1. #101
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Us Fi / Fe users have to stick together instead of pulling each other apart.

    Personally I am wary of this whole thread!

    After all, we use both functions all the time, and there are many examples in this thread of a cross-over of interpretation of what constitutes each function.

    Let's refresh: (excerpts from INFP or INFJ):

    When Fi is a preferred process...
    Often you have a gut feeling about whether personal, group, or organizational behavior is congruent with values.

    You often check behavior for authenticity and against beliefs to maintain inner harmony. When that harmony exists, there is a sense of peace.

    When you feel strongly, you point out contradictions and incongruities.

    Fundamental truths are often the basis for your actions, and standing up for these truths is energizing and compelling.

    Often, you do not put your values and beliefs upon others or share them publicly until they are violated. These values can be highly specific to the individual or universals such as freedom, loyalty, and goodness.

    You tend to see everything as having a value (or worth), and view things in constant relation to one another.

    INTERNAL WORLD
    Introverted Feeling (Fi)

    Weighing beliefs
    Harmonizing and clarifying
    Valuing
    Checking congruency
    Universal

    ---

    When Fe is a preferred process...
    You give attention to creating and maintaining harmonious relationships, often using social convention to keep harmony, to make people feel comfortable and included, and to keep the group intact.

    Often you are at ease with social conversations and knowing just the right words to say to someone.

    You easily disclose personal details to encourage others to express themselves.

    You place importance on making space for the expression of feelings -- positive and negative.

    You organize time, space, and thing in relation to the effects on people.

    You often feel pulled to take care of everyone or even whole groups, either physically or emotionally. Meeting the needs of others is energizing until your own needs are ignored for too long.

    EXTERNAL WORLD
    Extraverted Feeling (Fe)

    Considering others
    Affirming and accommodating
    Connecting
    Checking appropriateness
    Evoked by what is here and now

  2. #102
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    first wise thing I read today +5 stars
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #103
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I believe she does this because she's not comfortable being in a leadership position, doesn't like to delegate work, but also realizes she can't do the work by herself, but is uncomfortable outright telling someone what to do. She is not a very direct person at all, but hints and insinuates at things she wants done. For the most part, I catch on to her insinuations but she often uses these same tactics when she's upset or in a foul mood.

    So she'll say things like "I'm doing the work of 7 people," and depending on how I feel like responding I'll be silent and wait for her to tell me what she wants to do or say "OK, I'll do XYZ." Or she'll give me a project to do, tell me to do it how I want to do it, and if one piece of the project entails emailing a specific agency with a certain request I'll go to her and ask her is there anything she'd like me to emphasis in the communication. She'll say no no do it the way you like, I send the email, and then she'll send me back a critique of everything I should've said that I didn't. This has happened so many times I can't even count them.

    Would you say this is Fi behaving badly? Is this behavior that supersedes function and type? Because we certainly don't get very much of this on the forum, it's only Fe who gets pinned with this scarlet letter.
    I'd say it sounds like every INFP I know. Leading, or trying to lead, via Ne--meaning suggestions rather than orders--plus a gigantic background sensitivity that looks really, really self-involved and spins them around far more than is easy to watch, tending me to accidentally try taking more and more responsibility for their sense of well-being. It can be really hard to shrug this stuff off.

    The odd thing is, in fact one is *not* supposed to take responsibility for an INFP's feelings. Especially not an INFP who is in management.

    I suspect INFP's would find it lovely and pleasing if people paid direct attention to their feelings, but to some big degree, paying attention to an Fi-user's feelings keeps them locked inside themselves. Practical outcomes let them come out and be human.

    She reroutes impersonal statements to something about herself and construes it as personal when it was never meant as such. There is the feeling of needing to be very careful in how you word things, how you say things, to explain that it was not directed at you specifically.
    Yep.

    Maybe this is what FPs pick up on, the delicateness, and they view this as insincere, false, and pandering. Maybe both sides are not clearly seeing the cause and effect of innocent behavior.
    Probably true. How many people know enough about everyone else to be able to know what to do about each compromise that comes their way?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I totally agree with getting a working definition. And we probably don't have the same working definition. My definition is more social psychological in nature and not based on the typological definition. So when I think of group norms and values I think of things like social entropy, or prisoner's dilemma games, social mores, cultural values, things of that nature. I think on what exactly they are, not what a phrase that refers to them is. And I try to break down exactly what those things are which I've not seen anyone do, just generally rail against the fact they exist. That's not enough for me.

    So I'm asking you to please, break them down. What are some that you specifically find oppressive (Amargith gave some and thank you for that) and how do you connect those with the Fe function?
    If you're not using the typological definition in a typological discussion on a typology forum, your definition probably won't match a lot of those that others here are using. That might be the cause of some confusion.

    I'm not sure how granular you want me to break these down, so I'll just give examples of the kind of behavior that makes me wary.


    A friend of mine gets wary about drinking when others we're out with don't, and wanting to dress like they do. He wants us to "match" when we dress, since we're friends.. and, of course, "it's what friends do." He expects me to follow his sense of these norms and is passive aggressive toward me when I fail to do so. I'm not sure why I hang out with this person..


    A Fe-dominant relative gets irate when every single holiday doesn't go exactly as planned, and, since she's so neurotic about it and holds such high standards for them, these holidays never go well. For any of us.


    Another friend of mine was absolutely crushed that I didn't invite him to my graduation. I didn't invite anyone to it aside from my immediate family, because the graduation wasn't a big deal to me at all--in fact, it meant so little to me that it only incidentally came up in conversation with him.

    He proceeded to ask all of his other friends about it, naturally leaving my opinion out of his discussion. He concluded that, since most of them would have invited their friends to such an event, that I "should have" as well. I didn't hear the end of that one for a very, very long time.

    I understand that a community-oriented function would want to celebrate these things with me.. but, if I don't want to, then why should anyone else care?


    An acquaintance has no internal moral compass, and so is able to convert others to a point of view that just so happens to favor him; namely, getting them to abandon their own morals for his own personal gain. Before they know what's happened, the damage has been done. He's flat-out ruined many other people.. I could tell some stories, but I'd rather not.

    Because these people don't fit within his internal circle of friends, he flat out "doesn't care" about them and so feels no remorse for his actions.


    But I'll add the disclaimer that, of course, this is only "unhealthy" Fe. Or, it's some unheard of cognitive function that nobody can identify with. Every cognitive function sucks, and everyone who uses any cognitive function is a horrible person by nature.

    There. Now nobody can take these examples personally.


    And, another disclaimer to show that I appreciate Fe. To a certain extent, I know how to speak Fe. I like giving people personally-tailored birthday and Christmas gifts that show that I care about them. Stephen Covey is one of my role models. So on and so forth.

    I hope that's enough disclaimers to offset any sort of personal offense my examples might cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    That's part of why I think this thread is ridiculous. It largely seems like back and forth bashing.
    agree

    All "anti-function" threads devolve into that, because people identify so strongly with their functions for some reason.

  5. #105
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'd say it sounds like every INFP I know. Leading, or trying to lead, via Ne--meaning suggestions rather than orders
    ^ This is one INFP who would have no trouble telling you what to work on if you were part of my staff LOL!

    Why all the generalizing? Honestly, we learn stuff all our lives, and new strength areas are developed over time. Every type has their own natural tendencies if you will, every type, but if you believe part of the meaning of our lives involves learning, you are exposed to these opportunities all through your existence.

    So hey, cut everyone some slack! I give you all permission to be human OK, and not perfect yet.

  6. #106
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ This is one INFP who would have no trouble telling you what to work on if you were part of my staff LOL!
    I am pleased to meet one of that kind. I thought they never existed... Pleased to met you, my name is Olli and my left arm is longer than my right
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #107
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Now granted, I had to learn to be granular and be specific and EXPECT results. Not make excuses for others. But hey, that's what we're all here to do right? Learn?

    Nice to meet you too entropie. Maybe you already work for me - that would be fun! We can try to improve your grasping issues later.

  8. #108
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Peacebaby, that was a wonderful post.

  9. #109
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Indeed
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #110
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    PeaceBaby - enjoying looking at the big picture since ... well, never you mind how long.

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