MBTI and the Four Temperaments (Humors)

[Thalassa]

The classic system seemed to make sense, because my father is very artistic, and an ISTJ-Melancholy. (That really showed when I was younger. Now, it's my mother; also ISTJ=pure Melancholy, whose artisticness has really blossomed in retirement. There's also a lot of Ne--developed inferior in the stuff she makes).

My ISTJ is artistic too, in the sense of having a very good ear for music and having a very particular visual aesthetic taste for things like form and color. But like with my ESFJ ex, the form of being artistic seems more inclined to collection and selection and taste rather than raw manipulation of materials. My ESFJ ex collects films from all over the world, is totally a film snob, keeps them perfectly organized, and has a similarly heightened sense of form and color, though it's different in the specifics from the ISTJs. (Si is personal.)

My ISTJ grandfather was not "artistic" at all, though, unless you count the fact that he was a well-groomed snazzy dresser and he liked picking out pretty dresses for his wife and daughters and granddaughters...I would call him the more traditional image of a very practical ISTJ rather than a real aesthete or artist, though he liked people to dress nicely. He also used to buy me these collector's item porcelain dolls. Selecting and collecting and taste , again, rather than raw manipulation of artistic materials.

Not to say that there aren't SJ painters and writers, because there are of course. William Wordsworth was an ISFJ poet.

I still think Melancholic makes more sense for Si types in general, including INFPs with their tert Si.

EDIT: Maybe that's it! Maybe it's Si/Fi or Fi/Si...hmmm...

 

[King sns]

All of that certainly makes sense.

Melancholies in the classic temperament systems generally are portrayed as the artistic ones; generally where the SP's (especially ISFP) are in Keirsey's system. Just imagine that hurdles I had to clear when I first saw the Keirsey temperaments with the "Artisan" as the Sanguine, and the Feeling temperament as Choleric.

The classic system seemed to make sense, because my father is very artistic, and an ISTJ-Melancholy. (That really showed when I was younger. Now, it's my mother; also ISTJ=pure Melancholy, whose artisticness has really blossomed in retirement. There's also a lot of Ne--developed inferior in the stuff she makes).

I guess artisticness is a general S thing, and SJ's will focus more on internalized stuff, while SP's will probably be more about the current senses.
for some reason, Keirsey only picked this up in the SP's. The Galen systems identified it in the Melancholy. The systems before APS did not have the "Control area" distinction, so did not pick up any artisticness in the Sanguine, beyond their focus on "the senses" (which as mentioned in classic temperament, though not associated with Jung's "Sensing" function).

ISTP of course, is the one who is both Melancholic and Artisan. It actually was the only type known as "the Artisan" back when Keirsey had his old temperament names (with the SP as "Dionysian").
The ISFP was called "The Artist". That one is often [informally] called "melancholy", though neither the Interaction Style, nor the conative temperament are Melancholic. (It's Phlegmatic-Sanguine). I guess it's similar to the ISTJ, but with the Feeling out front instead of tertiary, and again, more current sense focused.

I saw that before, but didn't notice your My Personality badge. So I went to your profile, but saw ESFP. So you changed? You actually said Choleric Melancholy in the previous post. That suggests ESTJ. (Don't know you enough to really have my own sense of your type).
ENTP fits SanChlor (Jenocyde is good example, and others here have fit it as well). Don't know why it would come out Melancholy in place of Sanguine. I could see the Choleric being mellowed into Melancholy.

I know an ISTJ, an obvious one, who knows MBTI and the temperments, I've known her for years (she is one of my best friends and like a sister), actually happens to be a phlegmatic choleric. (Not too related, but wanted to mention that since we're seeing a lot of "ISTJ's are melancholic"- she could be the exception.)

 

[cfs1992]

Sanguine choleric. Correct for me!

 

[Lady_X]

My ISTJ is artistic too, in the sense of having a very good ear for music and having a very particular visual aesthetic taste for things like form and color. But like with my ESFJ ex, the form of being artistic seems more inclined to collection and selection and taste rather than raw manipulation of materials. My ESFJ ex collects films from all over the world, is totally a film snob, keeps them perfectly organized, and has a similarly heightened sense of form and color, though it's different in the specifics from the ISTJs. (Si is personal.)

My ISTJ grandfather was not "artistic" at all, though, unless you count the fact that he was a well-groomed snazzy dresser and he liked picking out pretty dresses for his wife and daughters and granddaughters...I would call him the more traditional image of a very practical ISTJ rather than a real aesthete or artist, though he liked people to dress nicely. He also used to buy me these collector's item porcelain dolls. Selecting and collecting and taste , again, rather than raw manipulation of artistic materials.

Not to say that there aren't SJ painters and writers, because there are of course. William Wordsworth was an ISFJ poet.

I still think Melancholic makes more sense for Si types in general, including INFPs with their tert Si.

EDIT: Maybe that's it! Maybe it's Si/Fi or Fi/Si...hmmm...

interesting...that's exactly how i would describe my ex istj. he definitely had an ear for music...was a pianist for years growing up and then became a really good dj and he had a really good eye for aesthetics too.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I saw that before, but didn't notice your My Personality badge. So I went to your profile, but saw ESFP. So you changed? You actually said Choleric Melancholy in the previous post. That suggests ESTJ. (Don't know you enough to really have my own sense of your type).
ENTP fits SanChlor (Jenocyde is good example, and others here have fit it as well). Don't know why it would come out Melancholy in place of Sanguine. I could see the Choleric being mellowed into Melancholy.

I actually tie on Melancholy and Sanguine w/ Choleric a little lower.

 

[rbpoe]

I_F_ Melancholic
I_T_ Phlegmatic
E_F_ Choleric
E_T_ Sanguine

 

[Eric B]

The original definitions of the temperaments:

Sanguine: expressive, people focused
Choleric: expressive, task focused
Melancholy: reserved, task focused
Supine: reserved, people focus
Phlegmatic: moderate in both scales, but ends up closest to Supine in behavior (peaceful, etc); basically a more calm version of it. So it appeared to fit the "reserved, people focused" slot, relative to the others.

The easiest correlation is in the Interaction Styles, which use I/E (reserved/expressive), and directing/informing (task/people; which is T/F for S's, and J/P for N's).

Get Things Going (ESF/ENP): extravert (E), informing (F/P) Sanguine
In Charge (EST/ENJ): extravert (E), directing (T/J) Choleric
Chart the course (IST/INJ): introvert (I), directing (T/J) Melancholic
Behind the Scenes (ISF/INP): introvert (I), informing (F/P) Phlegmatic or Supine

Keirsey's temperaments are "blind" to I/E, but I've found that the "expressive/reserved" (I/E) counterparts for them are Cooperative/Pragmatic, tying together SJ with NF and SP with NT. Like I/E, they do shape how aggressive or passive a person is in situations (like Keirsey's descriptions "do what's right" vs "do what works").
People/task is Berens' motive/structure, tying SP with NF and SJ with NT.

Artisan (SP): pragmatic, motive focused (Sanguine)
Rational (NT): pragmatic, structure focused (Choleric)
Guardian (SJ): cooperative, structure focused (Melancholic)
Idealist (NF): cooperative, motive focused (Phlegmatic or Supine)

(Keirsey reversed the Galen correlations of NT and NF from defining them by certain aspects of the behavior)

So each type is a blend of temperaments. There will be seven types associated with each temperament. Three conative, three affective, and one that is both. This is the "pure" temperament type.

I see people are trying to make S/N a "classic" temperament factor (apparently, factored with I/E), but S/N does not correspond to people/task. Where S/N came in, was in the "conative" (leadership style, basically) systems Keirsey used, beginning with Plato's four types of men, and especially through Kant and Kretschmer, the perceptive factor tied together what were opposites in Galen's system. Sanguine and Melancholic are "observant" (S), and Choleric and Phlegmatic are "imaginative" (N).
Now this is on the conative level only. The "affective" (social) level Galen used, is completely "blind" to S/N. That's why each Interaction Style is defined by two possible code sets: one "S" letter combination and one "N" combination. They are equally split between S and N, and it is the conative temperament in the mix that determines which set of codes the type will have.
(EI + SN (ES, IS, EN, IN) are called "learning styles" by Nardi (Neuroscience of Personality, p. 158))

These are the resultant correlations, which generally seem to work, with perhaps some variation at times, (especially since there's also a third area of temperament not covered in type):

ISTJ Pure Melancholy
ISFJ Phlegmatic*/Melancholy ("PhlegMel")
INFJ Melancholy/Phlegmatic* ("MelPhleg")
INTJ Melancholy/Choleric ("MelChlor")
ISTP Melancholy/Sanguine ("MelSan")
ISFP Phlegmatic*/Sanguine ("PhlegSan")
INFP Pure Phlegmatic*
INTP Phlegmatic*/Choleric ("PhlegChlor")
ESTP Choleric/Sanguine ("ChlorSan")
ESFP Pure Sanguine
ENFP Sanguine/Phlegmatic* ("SanPhleg")
ENTP Sanguine/Choleric ("SanChlor")
ESTJ Choleric/Melancholy ("ChlorMel")
ESFJ Sanguine/Melancholy ("SanMel")
ENFJ Choleric/Phlegmatic* ("ChlorPhleg")
ENTJ Pure Choleric

*(May also be fifth temperament, Supine)

 

[GranChi]

If I was choosing one MBTI type for each of the four temperaments in its purest form, I think choleric would correspond to ENTJ, sanguine to ESFP, phlegmatic to ISTP, and melancholic to INFJ.
This is because:
•Cholerics and sanguines are extroverted (E), while phlegmatics and melancholics are introverted (I).
•Cholerics and melancholics tend to be thoughtful about the future or the deeper meaning (N), while sanguines and phlegmatics tend to live in the present (S).
•Cholerics and phlegmatics are more practical and unemotional (T), while sanguines and melancholics are more emotional (F).
•Cholerics and melancholics are more organized and planned (J), while sanguines and phlegmatics are more casual and unplanned (P).
•The descriptions of these MBTI types on http://www.16personalities.com/ really fit the classic four temperament personalities, especially the ENTJ/choleric and ESFP/sanguine.

 

[Eric B]

ISTJ is the pure Melancholic and INFP is Phlegmatic. (or Supine)
Melancholy is actually very "concrete" (down-to-earth) focused, and relies on familiarity (introverted Sensing). They hate "abstraction" when forced on them.
Now, an INFJ is Melancholic on the surface (Chart the Course—INJ; Interaction Styles each have both an S and N counterpart), so will fit that "future" or "deeper meaning". A mature totally ISTJ with a developed inferior will be more like that as well.
ISTJ's, especially females, often have a strong tertiary Fi that makes them very in touch with their emotions.

Phlegmatic is really inbetween, but they are "diplomatic", "democratic" and peace-desiring (abstract ideals) like NF (Keirsey overlooked this on making the NF "Choleric" and the NT "Phlegmatic"). Again, since Phlegmatic has low energy, he doesn't look "emotional", like is people expect of a Feeler, but is inbetween; "take-it"or"leave-it".
Think of it this, way, as I just learned. Technically, a pure Phlegmatic would be "XXXX", but that isn't allowed, so when people get 50% on all four dichotomies, the scale is tipped in favor of I, N, F and P (because it is assumed people in this society are generally pressured toward E, S, T and J).

Right, on the ENTJ and ESFP.

 

[GranChi]

I see what you mean. But I think of melancholics as philosophical and reflective, and even if they aren't always, they're usually described as "analytical" - which I think suggests intuition over sensing. If I'm wrong about them being emotional, could the pure melancholic type perhaps be INTJ?
As for phlegmatic, it's hard. Phlegmatics are supposed to be observant, so I would think they'd be S. I guess ISFP could work, although that type is known for being artistic, which isn't a quality that's generally ascribed to phlegmatics.
It's surprising how much harder this is for the introverted temperaments than for the extroverted ones. It seems like we can both agree that I and J go with melancholic and I and P go with phlegmatic, though.

 

[Eric B]

I see what you mean. But I think of melancholics as philosophical and reflective, and even if they aren't always, they're usually described as "analytical" - which I think suggests intuition over sensing. If I'm wrong about them being emotional, could the pure melancholic type perhaps be INTJ?
As for phlegmatic, it's hard. Phlegmatics are supposed to be observant, so I would think they'd be S. I guess ISFP could work, although that type is known for being artistic, which isn't a quality that's generally ascribed to phlegmatics.
It's surprising how much harder this is for the introverted temperaments than for the extroverted ones. It seems like we can both agree that I and J go with melancholic and I and P go with phlegmatic, though.

The "philosophical and reflective and analytical" is from the Thinking. They still tend to be more observant and concrete in focus.
INTJ would be Melancholy Choleric (the Choleric is what adds the N).

A Phlegmatic's "observation" (which is described in the APS) is basically their "ambiversion". They are slow to either express, or avoid, so they observe, and again, can "take 'em or leave 'em".
ISFP would be Phlegmatic Sanguine (The Sanguine is what adds the S).

In all cases, the second temperament, the conative (Keirseyan) one, is what connects with S/N. The first temperament (social or Interaction Style) is "blind" to S/N.
The pure Phlegmatic, again, might seem to be inbetween in all the factors, but would likely edge out in favor of INFP. Or, hypothetically, it could be any type, but the basic descriptions seem to be compatible with INP and NF.

 

[GranChi]

What's the APS? I read about the four temperaments at the page on Fig Hunter and a few other places.

 

[Eric B]

Arno Profile System; a specialized version of FIRO-B, mapping the temperaments to the FIRO's system, in which it was determined Phlegmatic was moderate, so there was a fifth temperament that was truly reserved and totally people-focused. http://www.temperaments.info/Free-Temperament-Reports/Free-Temperament-Reports.htm

The Fig Hunter page (which is really good) is based on the version of the theory Tim LaHaye repopularized, which has four "pure" temperaments, plus twelve "blends" of the four. These are what I've linked to the 16 types through Keirsey's groups + Interaction Styles, and will likely correspond to two of the three FIRO/APS areas of temperament. (It actually works out that way for a lot of people).

 

[madhatter]

The Fig Hunter page (which is really good) is based on the version of the theory Tim LaHaye repopularized, which has four "pure" temperaments, plus twelve "blends" of the four. These are what I've linked to the 16 types through Keirsey's groups + Interaction Styles, and will likely correspond to two of the three FIRO/APS areas of temperament. (It actually works out that way for a lot of people).

Melancholic/Sanguine on the Fig Hunter page is what describes me the best, which matches what you say ISTPs are.

 

[GranChi]

That's interesting, because I also thought Melancholic/Sanguine fit me, but I'm INFP. I have most of the melancholic qualities described (philosophical thinker, intellectual, appreciates beauty, analytical tendencies, etc.), but unlike a pure melancholic, I do want to interact with people. I thought melancholic types would generally be N because that's the more reflective and analytical function, but I guess I'm outnumbered about that.

 

[Eric B]

[MENTION=18005]GranChi[/MENTION] Do you think you could be this: http://www.temperaments.info/Temperament-Area-of-Inclusion/supine-inclusion.htm
This is a newly discovered temperament (not included in most of those quizzes) that basically "expresses as a Melancholy (i.e. introvert), and responds as a Sanguine" (people-focused, wants to interact), so it makes sense that of the other four temperaments, you would come out Melancholic and Sanguine.

Reflective and analytical are more I traits than particularly N. The purest Melancholic is ISTJ, and they get the "philosophical" part from Si+Te (practical logical principles from learned facts; and inferior Ne will come into play, when it develops), and the appreciation of beauty is tertiary Fi.
INTJ and INFJ will also be Melancholic on the surface (Interaction Style; same as IST), so that also could have shaped that image of the Melancholic, but those types have other temperaments mixed in.

 

[GranChi]

Yes, actually, that does sound like me. I've heard about supine before, but usually as a temperament of people who feel a need to serve others and are followers by nature. That's not what I'm like, but the description you linked me to was closer to my personality. This website seems different from the four temperaments concept as I've learned about it, though - it's more focused on social tendencies and desires. (The website, I mean.)

 

[Eric B]

The theory used by that site is much more indepth, and those descriptions are only two general aspects of the temperament, from being low expressive and high responsive.

Now which of these do you most identify with: (the one before was the social area, this is the "leadership" area):
http://www.temperaments.info/Temperament-Area-of-Control/supine-control.htm
http://www.temperaments.info/Temperament-Area-of-Control/supine-phlegmatic-control.htm
http://www.temperaments.info/Temperament-Area-of-Control/phlegmatic-control.htm

 

[Velvet_Rose]

If you go with something like the LaHaye's system, I'd say the correlations are something like:
EXXP=Sanguine
EXXJ=Choleric
IXXP=Phlegmatic
IXXJ=Melancholic

Edit: For a secondary pref, there's a correlation between T and Choleric and F and Sanguine. I don't think you can go much further than that.

This sounds a lot more accurate than NF=choleric and whatnot. I am INFP, predominantly phleggy, then somewhat melly and just a little sanguine with no choleric at all. I can also match up my family and friends with this quite accurately.

Dad, ENFP, sanguine and a little choleric
Mom, INFJ, melancholic
Friend, ISFJ, melancholic with a little choleric
Sister, ESTJ, choleric
Brother, INFJ, melancholic half phlegmatic
Sister, ESFJ, half sanguine half choleric
Sister, ENTP, sanguine

I'm not matching them according to your chart, they've been tested and these are the results.

 

[GranChi]

That sounds right, Velvet Rose. I'm an INFP too, and I think I'm mostly melancholic with some phlegmatic or sanguine. It's hard to tell, because I've noticed different descriptions of the two introverted temperaments aren't totally consistent on the difference between the two. I've been thinking IS = phlegmatic and IN = melancholic - I just read about ISFJ and thought it sounded the closest to phlegmatic (calm, peaceful, helpful, observant, dependable, like stability) - but others don't agree, and honestly it's hard to tell. I've noticed different descriptions of the two introverted temperaments aren't totally consistent on the difference between the two. You seem to know a lot about the temperaments, so I'm wondering, how would you exactly describe the difference between phlegmatic and melancholic?
And I guess I might as well do a quick little match-up too, although the temperaments are just based on my perception:
Mom - ESTJ, choleric
Dad - ESFJ, sanguine with a little choleric and a little phlegmatic
Friend - INFP, phlegmatic with a little melancholic