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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The classic system seemed to make sense, because my father is very artistic, and an ISTJ-Melancholy. (That really showed when I was younger. Now, it's my mother; also ISTJ=pure Melancholy, whose artisticness has really blossomed in retirement. There's also a lot of Ne--developed inferior in the stuff she makes).
    My ISTJ is artistic too, in the sense of having a very good ear for music and having a very particular visual aesthetic taste for things like form and color. But like with my ESFJ ex, the form of being artistic seems more inclined to collection and selection and taste rather than raw manipulation of materials. My ESFJ ex collects films from all over the world, is totally a film snob, keeps them perfectly organized, and has a similarly heightened sense of form and color, though it's different in the specifics from the ISTJs. (Si is personal.)

    My ISTJ grandfather was not "artistic" at all, though, unless you count the fact that he was a well-groomed snazzy dresser and he liked picking out pretty dresses for his wife and daughters and granddaughters...I would call him the more traditional image of a very practical ISTJ rather than a real aesthete or artist, though he liked people to dress nicely. He also used to buy me these collector's item porcelain dolls. Selecting and collecting and taste , again, rather than raw manipulation of artistic materials.

    Not to say that there aren't SJ painters and writers, because there are of course. William Wordsworth was an ISFJ poet.

    I still think Melancholic makes more sense for Si types in general, including INFPs with their tert Si.

    EDIT: Maybe that's it! Maybe it's Si/Fi or Fi/Si...hmmm...

  2. #62
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    All of that certainly makes sense.

    Melancholies in the classic temperament systems generally are portrayed as the artistic ones; generally where the SP's (especially ISFP) are in Keirsey's system. Just imagine that hurdles I had to clear when I first saw the Keirsey temperaments with the "Artisan" as the Sanguine, and the Feeling temperament as Choleric.

    The classic system seemed to make sense, because my father is very artistic, and an ISTJ-Melancholy. (That really showed when I was younger. Now, it's my mother; also ISTJ=pure Melancholy, whose artisticness has really blossomed in retirement. There's also a lot of Ne--developed inferior in the stuff she makes).

    I guess artisticness is a general S thing, and SJ's will focus more on internalized stuff, while SP's will probably be more about the current senses.
    for some reason, Keirsey only picked this up in the SP's. The Galen systems identified it in the Melancholy. The systems before APS did not have the "Control area" distinction, so did not pick up any artisticness in the Sanguine, beyond their focus on "the senses" (which as mentioned in classic temperament, though not associated with Jung's "Sensing" function).

    ISTP of course, is the one who is both Melancholic and Artisan. It actually was the only type known as "the Artisan" back when Keirsey had his old temperament names (with the SP as "Dionysian").
    The ISFP was called "The Artist". That one is often [informally] called "melancholy", though neither the Interaction Style, nor the conative temperament are Melancholic. (It's Phlegmatic-Sanguine). I guess it's similar to the ISTJ, but with the Feeling out front instead of tertiary, and again, more current sense focused.

    I saw that before, but didn't notice your My Personality badge. So I went to your profile, but saw ESFP. So you changed? You actually said Choleric Melancholy in the previous post. That suggests ESTJ. (Don't know you enough to really have my own sense of your type).
    ENTP fits SanChlor (Jenocyde is good example, and others here have fit it as well). Don't know why it would come out Melancholy in place of Sanguine. I could see the Choleric being mellowed into Melancholy.
    I know an ISTJ, an obvious one, who knows MBTI and the temperments, I've known her for years (she is one of my best friends and like a sister), actually happens to be a phlegmatic choleric. (Not too related, but wanted to mention that since we're seeing a lot of "ISTJ's are melancholic"- she could be the exception.)
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  3. #63
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    Sanguine choleric. Correct for me!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    My ISTJ is artistic too, in the sense of having a very good ear for music and having a very particular visual aesthetic taste for things like form and color. But like with my ESFJ ex, the form of being artistic seems more inclined to collection and selection and taste rather than raw manipulation of materials. My ESFJ ex collects films from all over the world, is totally a film snob, keeps them perfectly organized, and has a similarly heightened sense of form and color, though it's different in the specifics from the ISTJs. (Si is personal.)

    My ISTJ grandfather was not "artistic" at all, though, unless you count the fact that he was a well-groomed snazzy dresser and he liked picking out pretty dresses for his wife and daughters and granddaughters...I would call him the more traditional image of a very practical ISTJ rather than a real aesthete or artist, though he liked people to dress nicely. He also used to buy me these collector's item porcelain dolls. Selecting and collecting and taste , again, rather than raw manipulation of artistic materials.

    Not to say that there aren't SJ painters and writers, because there are of course. William Wordsworth was an ISFJ poet.

    I still think Melancholic makes more sense for Si types in general, including INFPs with their tert Si.

    EDIT: Maybe that's it! Maybe it's Si/Fi or Fi/Si...hmmm...
    interesting...that's exactly how i would describe my ex istj. he definitely had an ear for music...was a pianist for years growing up and then became a really good dj and he had a really good eye for aesthetics too.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I saw that before, but didn't notice your My Personality badge. So I went to your profile, but saw ESFP. So you changed? You actually said Choleric Melancholy in the previous post. That suggests ESTJ. (Don't know you enough to really have my own sense of your type).
    ENTP fits SanChlor (Jenocyde is good example, and others here have fit it as well). Don't know why it would come out Melancholy in place of Sanguine. I could see the Choleric being mellowed into Melancholy.
    I actually tie on Melancholy and Sanguine w/ Choleric a little lower.

  6. #66
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    I_F_ Melancholic
    I_T_ Phlegmatic
    E_F_ Choleric
    E_T_ Sanguine

  7. #67
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    The original definitions of the temperaments:

    Sanguine: expressive, people focused
    Choleric: expressive, task focused
    Melancholy: reserved, task focused
    Supine: reserved, people focus
    Phlegmatic: moderate in both scales, but ends up closest to Supine in behavior (peaceful, etc); basically a more calm version of it. So it appeared to fit the "reserved, people focused" slot, relative to the others.

    The easiest correlation is in the Interaction Styles, which use I/E (reserved/expressive), and directing/informing (task/people; which is T/F for S's, and J/P for N's).

    Get Things Going (ESF/ENP): extravert (E), informing (F/P) Sanguine
    In Charge (EST/ENJ): extravert (E), directing (T/J) Choleric
    Chart the course (IST/INJ): introvert (I), directing (T/J) Melancholic
    Behind the Scenes (ISF/INP): introvert (I), informing (F/P) Phlegmatic or Supine

    Keirsey's temperaments are "blind" to I/E, but I've found that the "expressive/reserved" (I/E) counterparts for them are Cooperative/Pragmatic, tying together SJ with NF and SP with NT. Like I/E, they do shape how aggressive or passive a person is in situations (like Keirsey's descriptions "do what's right" vs "do what works").
    People/task is Berens' motive/structure, tying SP with NF and SJ with NT.

    Artisan (SP): pragmatic, motive focused (Sanguine)
    Rational (NT): pragmatic, structure focused (Choleric)
    Guardian (SJ): cooperative, structure focused (Melancholic)
    Idealist (NF): cooperative, motive focused (Phlegmatic or Supine)

    (Keirsey reversed the Galen correlations of NT and NF from defining them by certain aspects of the behavior)

    So each type is a blend of temperaments. There will be seven types associated with each temperament. Three conative, three affective, and one that is both. This is the "pure" temperament type.

    I see people are trying to make S/N a "classic" temperament factor (apparently, factored with I/E), but S/N does not correspond to people/task. Where S/N came in, was in the "conative" (leadership style, basically) systems Keirsey used, beginning with Plato's four types of men, and especially through Kant and Kretschmer, the perceptive factor tied together what were opposites in Galen's system. Sanguine and Melancholic are "observant" (S), and Choleric and Phlegmatic are "imaginative" (N).
    Now this is on the conative level only. The "affective" (social) level Galen used, is completely "blind" to S/N. That's why each Interaction Style is defined by two possible code sets: one "S" letter combination and one "N" combination. They are equally split between S and N, and it is the conative temperament in the mix that determines which set of codes the type will have.
    (EI + SN (ES, IS, EN, IN) are called "learning styles" by Nardi (Neuroscience of Personality, p. 158))

    These are the resultant correlations, which generally seem to work, with perhaps some variation at times, (especially since there's also a third area of temperament not covered in type):

    ISTJ Pure Melancholy
    ISFJ Phlegmatic*/Melancholy ("PhlegMel")
    INFJ Melancholy/Phlegmatic* ("MelPhleg")
    INTJ Melancholy/Choleric ("MelChlor")
    ISTP Melancholy/Sanguine ("MelSan")
    ISFP Phlegmatic*/Sanguine ("PhlegSan")
    INFP Pure Phlegmatic*
    INTP Phlegmatic*/Choleric ("PhlegChlor")
    ESTP Choleric/Sanguine ("ChlorSan")
    ESFP Pure Sanguine
    ENFP Sanguine/Phlegmatic* ("SanPhleg")
    ENTP Sanguine/Choleric ("SanChlor")
    ESTJ Choleric/Melancholy ("ChlorMel")
    ESFJ Sanguine/Melancholy ("SanMel")
    ENFJ Choleric/Phlegmatic* ("ChlorPhleg")
    ENTJ Pure Choleric

    *(May also be fifth temperament, Supine)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  8. #68
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    If I was choosing one MBTI type for each of the four temperaments in its purest form, I think choleric would correspond to ENTJ, sanguine to ESFP, phlegmatic to ISTP, and melancholic to INFJ.
    This is because:
    •Cholerics and sanguines are extroverted (E), while phlegmatics and melancholics are introverted (I).
    •Cholerics and melancholics tend to be thoughtful about the future or the deeper meaning (N), while sanguines and phlegmatics tend to live in the present (S).
    •Cholerics and phlegmatics are more practical and unemotional (T), while sanguines and melancholics are more emotional (F).
    •Cholerics and melancholics are more organized and planned (J), while sanguines and phlegmatics are more casual and unplanned (P).
    •The descriptions of these MBTI types on http://www.16personalities.com/ really fit the classic four temperament personalities, especially the ENTJ/choleric and ESFP/sanguine.

  9. #69
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    ISTJ is the pure Melancholic and INFP is Phlegmatic. (or Supine)
    Melancholy is actually very "concrete" (down-to-earth) focused, and relies on familiarity (introverted Sensing). They hate "abstraction" when forced on them.
    Now, an INFJ is Melancholic on the surface (Chart the Course—INJ; Interaction Styles each have both an S and N counterpart), so will fit that "future" or "deeper meaning". A mature totally ISTJ with a developed inferior will be more like that as well.
    ISTJ's, especially females, often have a strong tertiary Fi that makes them very in touch with their emotions.

    Phlegmatic is really inbetween, but they are "diplomatic", "democratic" and peace-desiring (abstract ideals) like NF (Keirsey overlooked this on making the NF "Choleric" and the NT "Phlegmatic"). Again, since Phlegmatic has low energy, he doesn't look "emotional", like is people expect of a Feeler, but is inbetween; "take-it"or"leave-it".
    Think of it this, way, as I just learned. Technically, a pure Phlegmatic would be "XXXX", but that isn't allowed, so when people get 50% on all four dichotomies, the scale is tipped in favor of I, N, F and P (because it is assumed people in this society are generally pressured toward E, S, T and J).

    Right, on the ENTJ and ESFP.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  10. #70
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    I see what you mean. But I think of melancholics as philosophical and reflective, and even if they aren't always, they're usually described as "analytical" - which I think suggests intuition over sensing. If I'm wrong about them being emotional, could the pure melancholic type perhaps be INTJ?
    As for phlegmatic, it's hard. Phlegmatics are supposed to be observant, so I would think they'd be S. I guess ISFP could work, although that type is known for being artistic, which isn't a quality that's generally ascribed to phlegmatics.
    It's surprising how much harder this is for the introverted temperaments than for the extroverted ones. It seems like we can both agree that I and J go with melancholic and I and P go with phlegmatic, though.

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