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  1. #91
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GranChi View Post
    Yeah, I would have ISTJs as phlegmatic-choleric based on what I outlined, but to tell the truth, I do agree that they seem more like melancholics than phlegmatics (who are often said to dislike work). I wanted to correlate IN with melancholic, though, because I think INTPs and INFJs both seem very melancholic. (Although I guess if you're an INTP and you're mostly phlegmatic/supine, I can't be totally right on that - do you know what other INTPs have said?)
    Thanks, I'll look at the sites you mentioned if I get time. As for your question, I guess it's because melancholics are consistently described as the most introverted temperament as well as the most thoughtful and analytical, and people like that naturally come to conclusions inwardly based on their own careful reflection; they wouldn't care whether their ideas are conventional or not. The original definition of the melancholic was "slow to form an impression, but holds on to the impression for a long time", and this suggests that the melancholic gets its deeply-held beliefs from thinking a lot about the world, rather than from accepting the values of others or the community (especially since they tend to be loners). The Fig Hunter page, for example, characterizes them as guided by their own principles and relying on their own judgement over anyone else's. As for discontented, I got the impression that melancholics' frequent unhappiness is partly caused by seeing all the problems in the world around them, as they dislike imperfection and tend to be idealistic (Wikipedia says they often get hung up on the world's tragedy). Also, I've read that they often feel misunderstood and out of place in the world around them, in contrast to the sanguine who can usually fit right in.
    Melancholic was “long response-time delay; long response-time sustain”. That basically amounts to introversion and task-focus. Introverts are generally slower to approach others for interaction, and holding on to the negative emotions longer becomes tied to task focus, and either low “agreeableness” or high “neuroticism”.
    It's not necessarily just “impressions”.

    So in both dimensions, they're very inward focused. (Cognitively as well: Si need for familiarity). This, however, is what makes them tend to protect themselves from the outside world with what's known as “concrete structure” or an institution. At least in the conative area (SJ), that is. They don't accept just any “convention”; it must meet a strict criteria of their own. (Like what you said). In a society like this dominated by SJ's, they end up often defining what's “conventional”, but where they're a minority, they would seem more like the descriptions you're using.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  2. #92
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Forgot to add:
    Most INTP's do end up identifying with Melancholic, but then I believe that's because of the blend of Phlegmatic or Supine (INP) with Choleric (NT). Of course, you could theoretically argue the same thing with ISTJ. But I think the Keirsey temperament + Interaction Styles model sorts it out better.
    You can think of IT in general as being a kind of “Melancholic” on the surface (and for three of the types, it is), or what I would call a “social image” of being reserved (I), and having a critical edge (T ); but for INTP, I is apart of Interaction Styles, while T is apart of the conative temperament. The P is actually the NTP's social factor, and it's actually more agreeable or “people focused” (as opposed to the more critical, task-focused “J”). They just don't look like it on the outside.
    It's a matter of how the temperaments are “sorted”.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  3. #93
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    I found this info on another website:
    Here are the "blended temperaments" that result, using the original four temperaments:
    ISTJ: pure Melancholy ISFJ: PhlegmaticMelancholy INFJ: MelancholyPhlegmatic INTJ: MelancholyCholeric
    ISTP: MelancholySanguine ISFP: PhlegmaticSanguine INFP: Pure phlegmatic INTP: PhlegmaticCholeric
    ESTP: CholericSanguine ESFP: pure Sanguine ENFP: SanguinePhlegmatic ENTP: SanguineCholeric
    ESTJ: CholericMelancholy ESFJ: SanguineMelancholy ENFJ: CholericPhlegmatic ENTJ: pure Choleric

  4. #94
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yes, that was from my sites. It's Interaction Styles = Keirsey temperaments (but using the corresponding Galen names).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  5. #95
    Senior Member Dancing_Queen's Avatar
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    Correlating systems it's undoubtedly interesting and fun for speculation purposes, but unfortunately a lot of people take it too seriously and think it can pin down to a science.

    Whenever I take Temperament tests I get either Sanguine or Sanguine/Choleric, depending on the options. Because of that I had most people insisting I had to be either ESTP, ESFP or even ENTJ in my "Please, type me" threads in this forum and another.

    But my real type is ENFP, which I only got after being professionally tested. The problem is I only really feel like the "Artisan" and "In Charge" interaction styles really describe me in both my best and worst aspects.

    Which according to Keirsey theories and the last correlation charts made by @Eric B,doesn't make any sense at all
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #96
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    How do these together fit? (Don't remember if I've ever ran these by you).

    http://www.temperaments.info/Tempera...-inclusion.htm
    http://www.temperaments.info/Tempera...ne-control.htm

    That second one is exclusive to that system, so if you take other temperament tests, it will be off. IT would make sense to come out as just Sanguine then, because Supine and Sanguine have the same needs. You could come out as some Sanguine Choleric mix because they are both expressive, and a Sanguine when angry might seem like a Choleric, and this could be picked up as such on the cheaper tests. So that would explain you swinging between SP and In Charge.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  7. #97
    Senior Member autumnandtherain's Avatar
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    I've thought about the possibility of temperaments (humors) working together with MBTI to form more "flavors" through the types and I think it's a very interesting subject. But I disagree that you can pin down someone's temperament based on their MBTI type... I'm an INFJ, which means if I were to just assume by what's been discussed here, I'd be Melancholic/Phlegmatic, but in reality I'm Melancholic/Sanguine, and my least temperament is Phlegmatic. I think Fe may have something to do with my secondary Sanguineness...

  8. #98
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Again, you might be Melancholy Supine (check that second link in the above post), and if you took a four temperament only test, then the Supine won't be recognized, so some of its traits might come out Sanguine.

    Phlegmatic and Supine are similar in some ways, but are different. Both are what you could call "amiable" and rather reserved, but the Phlegmatic is reserved because of low energy and can take people or leave them, while the Supine is reserved because of fear of rejection, and really wants acceptance and recognition, which is like the Sanguine.
    It overall is closest to Phlegmatic of the ancient four, so that's why the two get bundled together in the Behind the Scenes or NF type groups.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  9. #99
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    EXXP=Sanguine
    EXXJ=Choleric
    IXXP=Phlegmatic
    IXXJ=Melancholic
    This is what I was thinking.


    I don't relate to any of them.

  10. #100
    Member RoadPaveMent's Avatar
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    The ppl I know IRL...
    Choleric: ESTJ
    Melancholic: INTJ
    Supine: INFJ, INFP
    Phlegmatic: ISTP
    Sanguine: ESFJ, ESFP
    EII
    supine

    R|L|oAI
    neutral good
    intrapersonal intelligence

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