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  1. #81
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    I think in the process of the maturation of Fi dom/aux they actually do tend to have a deeper understanding of other people because they learn to value the fact that other people have different value systems.

    The paradox of the Fi dom/aux is the personal universal values. I've seen the INTJs say this is an oxymoron, etc. but I don't think so.

    Fi starts out with personal values, sure, but as the person matures they will note universal values, oh yes, I think they will. I think they're highly likely (especially when Ne users) to notice patterns of human ethical values in different cultures, underlying humanity.

    I also think the strange thing is that we can defend our own values so fiercely, to the point of seeming disruptive or like outsiders, but when we're in a mature, rational Fi state we're so aware of how other people have their right to have values too, and how it's all circumstantial and shifting, etc.

    Fe has a similar complexity and seeming oxymoronic quality: they supposedly are always focused on other people, caring about the best interest of the collective group, and prizing harmony over standing up for individual values...but on the other hand they also impose social structure onto others (which seems willful rather than others-centered or harmonious) and in some cases (particularly in cases of Fe/Si) will almost stupidly adhere to "social order" even when it's completely irrational, non-sensical, and has nothing to do with anything.

    Neither Feeling function is simple or one-sided.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    TJs get the insular Fi, and FPs get to tap a little into the Eidos. Sucks, I know. I didn't make the rules though j/k.
    In actual fact xNTJs and xSFPs get the Se-Fi, xSTJs and xNFPs get the Ne-Fi.

    The problem with Ne-Fi is it assumes Se-Fi is the same or 'is missing' the Ne component.

    This is envision from the post above and indeed your own post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Random NFP
    There is only one Fi, you guys are deficient because you don't display the same Fi traits that we do! Our Fi is moar healthy!
    There is no such thing as 'non insular Fi'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest
    personal universal
    Should we spell out that this is really just mirroring the mirror and an INFP wouldn't feel their values were universal?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    In actual fact xNTJs and xSFPs get the Se-Fi, xSTJs and xNFPs get the Ne-Fi.

    The problem with Ne-Fi is it assumes Se-Fi is the same or 'is missing' the Ne component.
    'splain the diff between Se-Fi and Ne-Fi, if you can.


    Should we spell out that this is really just mirroring the mirror and an INFP wouldn't feel their values were universal?
    I dunno, I've noticed that older ESFPs (like my mom) are so live and let live, and I think over time ENFPs get that way too. FPs have a way of getting "live and let live" even if they differ on Ne/Se points. The NFP is probably more likely to preach to you about their personal values, but my SFP mother shows a similar violence to an NFP if she's crossed on her turf. All of these make Fi "look the same" to me.

    I've also noticed my ESFP mother getting butthurt and taking things personally like an NFP would, and so does my questionably ExFP sister (she tests ENFP, I sometimes suspect ESFP for lots of reasons) ...but my ENFJ sister on the other hand tends to stay more neutral and "outside" of it all (so she can manage the group, of course, let's not forget this aspect), and marvels at our ability to take each other so personally. My ISFJ sister also is very sensitive, but at the same time I don't think she takes things as personally, either. She doesn't have the same thing as "hey! you messed with my personal identity!" or whatever. She's the traditional "others focused" ISFJ for the most part, giving, nurturing, happy with little as long as she has a specific security and the people she loves around her. She can be bitchy, don't get me wrong, and so can ENFJ, but it's in a different way. In ENFJs case this mostly consists of trying to control or alter other people's behavior.

    Am I off topic here? Yes, I am. We were talking about personal universal values. Yep, INFPs can really be unapologetically "my values are mine" sometimes, so you suspect that these "universal values" are an ENFP delusion?

    Why do most cultures of people have an idea of "not hurting people unless they deserve it"? Of course, what constitutes "deserving it" can vary from culture to culture.

  4. #84
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    F1: I subjectively use my emotions to inform me of what is important to me

    3

    F2: I seek to know what is truly important to me, my deeply held values

    3
    F3: I am aware of universal personal values

    "universal personal"???

    1

    F4: I maintain internal harmony and personal integrity by adhering to my deeply held values

    3

    F5: I know what is truly important to me and use this knowledge to guide decisions

    2


    F6: I value all living things, attempting to allow each to maintain its own integrity

    1

    F7: I assess other people�s emotional states by reading my own internal reactions.

    1


    F8: I judge ideas, attitudes and behaviors according to my values

    1


    F9: I crusade for what is right even if it creates tension with the external world and may endanger a personal relationship

    1

    16/45
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    'splain the diff between Se-Fi and Ne-Fi, if you can.
    Se-Fi, ethics judged in the current situation as it appears - based upon introverted viewpoint.

    Ne-Fi, ethics judged on the exchange of ideas about a person or topic - based upon introverted viewpoint.

  6. #86
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Se-Fi, ethics judged in the current situation as it appears - based upon introverted viewpoint.

    Ne-Fi, ethics judged on the exchange of ideas about a person or topic - based upon introverted viewpoint.
    I've been wondering for awhile now about the differences. It's mostly right, what you're saying, but there are ESPs who are more complicated/refined than that in their views. I wonder sometimes that when Ni emerges for them, even if somewhat unconsciously, there's a more dramatic/milestone effect to it.. that reorients their sense of purpose, and shapes their judgement.. until the next milestone hits. One year, they're this; the next, they're that. Ni working in tandem with some kind of powerful Se information. It could be a shocking event, or maybe just something mundane.. like a new trend. Or maybe just a career change. This higher acquisition of direct experience, sometimes dramatic experience, may make their values kind of universal over time. There will be some who are more open to being more led by Se.. even extremely in some cases.. but it's kind of an interesting dynamic... ahem.. if they're "healthy". hah

  7. #87
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I've been wondering for awhile now about the differences. It's mostly right, what you're saying, but there are ESPs who are more complicated/refined than that in their views. I wonder sometimes that when Ni emerges for them, even if somewhat unconsciously, there's a more dramatic/milestone effect to it.. that reorients their sense of purpose, and shapes their judgement.. until the next milestone hits. One year, they're this; the next, they're that. Ni working in tandem with some kind of powerful Se information. It could be a shocking event, or maybe just something mundane.. like a new trend. Or maybe just a career change. This higher acquisition of direct experience, sometimes dramatic experience, may make their values kind of universal over time. There will be some who are more open to being more by Se.. even extreme in some cases.. but it's kind of an interesting dynamic... ahem.. if they're "healthy". hah

    Hmmm.. Never thought of it that way before. sounds accurate though. Our focuses and priorities change based on what we're seeing over time.
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  8. #88
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    retaking this...

    F1: I subjectively use my emotions to inform me of what is important to me - 2
    F2: I seek to know what is truly important to me, my deeply held values - 2 (um, I already know what's important to me... not much depth there)
    F3: I am aware of universal personal values - 2 (universal personal...?)
    F4: I maintain internal harmony and personal integrity by adhering to my deeply held values - 2 (I don't think I hold things very deeply...)
    F5: I know what is truly important to me and use this knowledge to guide decisions - 4
    F6: I value all living things, attempting to allow each to maintain its own integrity - 4
    F7: I assess other people's emotional states by reading my own internal reactions. - 3 (I empathize a lot but I don't really assess)
    F8: I judge ideas, attitudes and behaviors according to my values - 2
    F9: I crusade for what is right even if it creates tension with the external world and may endanger a personal relationship - 4

    Total= 25/45

    So... I'm probably not IxFP, but it may make my T/F questionable as an ENxP (I guess in theory I'm supposed to almost totally lack it, lol). I am guided by what I want and what I think is important, but there isn't the depth that is being implied here. I'm also challenging things a lot, but it's not so much about what is right in some deeper sense of the word.
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  9. #89
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I now believe some of these descriptions can be really misleading, if not understood in the contexts they were framed in. Especially concerning "values" and "emotions".

    Lenore Thomson's description seems to be the most solid. Fi is personal identification with variable (independently analyzed rather than externally set) situations. (This is best portrayed by #7,, and also where the "universal" element of #3 comes from).
    This (in my translation) leads to an internal standard of humane (as opposed to technical or "impersonal) values. That may lead to the above behaviors, such as being in touch with and trusting emotions; but the way those are generalized as "Fi" there makes it look like you have to "use Fi" whenever you "value" something, place importance, etc. (hence, like what I'm doing now), and this causes confusion for TP and FJ types, who find they do these things just as much as anyone else.
    These are products of an ego. Egos of any type.
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  10. #90
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    F1: I subjectively use my emotions to inform me of what is important to me
    3

    F2: I seek to know what is truly important to me, my deeply held values
    3

    F3: I am aware of universal personal values
    4

    F4: I maintain internal harmony and personal integrity by adhering to my deeply held values
    4

    F5: I know what is truly important to me and use this knowledge to guide decisions
    4

    F6: I value all living things, attempting to allow each to maintain its own integrity
    3

    F7: I assess other people�s emotional states by reading my own internal reactions.
    2

    F8: I judge ideas, attitudes and behaviors according to my values
    3

    F9: I crusade for what is right even if it creates tension with the external world and may endanger a personal relationship
    3

    Score: 29/45
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