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  1. #61
    Senior Member Urchin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Well, so far, online:
    INTP - Vague open-ended comments that are usually humorous. They may be inconsistent posters that appear and disappear unless the subject is notably interesting to them. Very passive.
    An INTP appears in order to comment.

    Also, we avoid arguments.

    The INTP disappears in a flourish of bubbles.
    "Having is not such a pleasing thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true." --Spock

    MBTI: INTP
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    Oldham: Solitary, Idiosyncratic

  2. #62
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    The idea of N as smart and theoretical while S is less sophisticated also leads to mistyping.
    A general hypothesis I reject, as well. But concrete thinking and verbalization are qualities which have as their primary application very down-to-earth pursuits. One simply doesn't find sensors, particularly ISTPs, making much use of pure theory or other abstractions. At higher intelligence they have, as would an intuitive, a greater capacity and therefore a greater likelihood of doing so. But it is not natural to them; to say so is to superordinate a theory over the empirical.

    daredevil and risk taking
    This, I agree, is not universal. But its particular inapplicability doesn't refute the substantiation of other qualities -- undistributed middle and all that. And your data is dependent on subjects identified as ISTPs to actually be ISTPs; there, established descriptions have weight. I tend to lean more towards Myers' pairing, in this case of the ISTP with the INTP, rather than Keirsey's fraternal quadruplets.

    Edit: As a clarification, threads do run through all NTs, but Keirsey's description (as I have noted elsewhere before) seems to favor the INTP when one compares living examples.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    *nod* They really need to strip the intelligence part out of MBTI and such. It confuses people way too much and you need to know a whole hell of a lot behind intelligence views and distributions to make any use of it.
    Note: I am not supporting the steroetype of ISTPs being plunbers/mechanics, etc, but part of the problem here, I think, is that mechanics, plumbers (and perhaps daredevils) don't get the respect they deserve.

    Do you think these jobs are so easy, intellectually speaking? I think it takes more than muscle to get these jobs done.

    As for the Openness-IQ corellation, I think it largely because IQ tests are biased towards the abstract, and many IQ/puzzle questions are intentionally written to violate "common sense" (or at least the closing off of possibilities based on personal experience).

    What if IQ tests were instead to "solve" a large number of crimes, or to fix a bunch of machinery? Would there be a corellation with Openness?

    I think there would be a lot less. A lot of times, the shortcuts people make by following common sense to close off possibilities (as long as its not carried to an extreme) yeild faster results in these situations (instead of, perhaps, no results what-so-ever).

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #64
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Do you think these jobs are so easy, intellectually speaking? I think it takes more than muscle to get these jobs done.
    This is where, contra what I posted above, Keirsey's theory of tactical intelligence seems veritable. Take a reasonably smart pencil-neck and drop him into a room of civil engineers, or mechanics, or foremen talking their profession: he will come off like a fool.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Recluse's Avatar
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    On the topic of discriminating between ISTPs and INTPs through observation:

    Based on my (admittedly limited) observations, ISTPs seem more focused and intense, more in touch with the realities of a situation--and less inclined to gaze off into space as thoughts ricochet off the main topic into the void, to emerge later completely transformed and at times either seemingly or wackily (depending on one's point of view) way off target. I wouldn't use the term "absent-minded" to describe any of the ISTPs that I've known, nor the term "pragmatic" to describe a textbook INTP. That said, a well-balanced type could, conceivably, adopt another type's thought process as the situation warrants, confusing the matter.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I didn't say that I didn't say it. I said that I didn't say that I said it. I want to make that very clear.

  6. #66
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Do you think these jobs are so easy, intellectually speaking?
    It's all relative and I am not familiar enough with these profession to make a judgment. At the task level, I'd say yes... but I don't know for sure and haven't read anything in particular to plumbing.

    What if IQ tests were instead to "solve" a large number of crimes, or to fix a bunch of machinery? Would there be a corellation with Openness?
    If you change the relationship, then no, there wouldn't be. I don't see the relevance, however. In both cases, higher IQ within the groups relate to better performance (crime solving and machinists both being tested before, FWIW). It'd just be a crappy IQ test (colinear with performance). In any case, it's just a matter of reference point.

    --

    However, those are problems best left for their own thread. What I was referring to is the concept that IQ is part of personality/a subset of personality. Unlike N/S, the distribution for intelligence doesn't match the general population, meaning that if you model Ns IQ vs Ss IQ, the normal IQ curve is very very different with the peak below average, but a gigantic tail end into high-IQ areas.

    IOW, Ss have an extreme range of intelligences while Ns have a very narrow range. As above, the reason why some mechanics will be better is because IQ ability is not directly linked to personality. The relationship is complicated. Ns answer pretty directly "I am not a good mechanic"... but that doesn't mean that one can't be a good mechanic and have a high IQ. You inherently assume that Ss (ie: mechanics) will have lower IQs whereas Ss have a rather extreme range of available IQs, compared to Ns that bunch around 110. Instead of looking at intelligence for what it is we attempt to attack the concept, despite that it applies even within those sub-sets. Mechanics are not treated unfairly - the range of mechanic ability is gigantic, with high IQs at the top. Being "an S" doens't make one at the top, but neither does being an N. Testing different things. Personality needs to stay out of intelligence entirely.

    The "mechanic" aptitude is spread along the Ss axis, IOW, ranging from sub 80 IQ to 120+IQ... in large numbers. Ns, however, are spread from the sub 100-120+ IQ... in a giant peak. But they make lousy mechanics. That makes the statement: Mechanics have lower IQs / IQ tests are unfair to mechanics technically correct. And yet, totally wrong. High IQ mechanics are those in mechanical engineering - a high IQ degree - or in a technical school, the mid-range IQ.

    MBTI simply created an entire category for people to feel special in, what with all the veiled intellectualisms... But it didn't actually measure it. As such, it has no value and no meaning, doesn't relate properly and confuses the hell out of just that one dimension.

    (An analogy would be taking all of the personality disorders associated with high IQ and testing for them and calling it the "high iq group". Is it surprising when they don't do better in RL, despite IQ being related to performance/achievement? Is it surprising when there is an unusual population distribution? Yah.)

    Oops, I let a bit too much come out this time, perhaps... [/MBTI rant over]

    To summarize don't use IQ to type, it doesn't help (except to identify low IQ people, I suppose )

    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    This is where, contra what I posted above, Keirsey's theory of tactical intelligence seems veritable. Take a reasonably smart pencil-neck and drop him into a room of civil engineers, or mechanics, or foremen talking their profession: he will come off like a fool.
    Is the opposite true? Yes. That means it has to do with the transfer - ie: the skills, the experience and the environment.

    I'll even go as far as saying that dropping a physics doctorate into my job wouldn't be at all scary, but I'm pretty sure trying to teach any of his material would be way beyond me. And would be, 3-4 years later... probably forever. The doctor would be able to my job by the end of the week. (My job falls in the 90-120 range, physics doctorates in the 125-150 range, roughly.)

    And of course, FWIW, if you are talking about the mechanical engineer/civil engineers... their group IQ is around 120-130.

    I also remember a study with car mechanics a long time back that had no formal training, in which they were average or above in IQ. I also remember technical schools doing it, in which mechanics (avionics, etc) were notably higher, roughly on part with arts student IQs.

    It might be worth picking groups that aren't already above average when using examples.

  7. #67
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    Most of the ISTPs, if not all, I've been around do indeed have a more "sporty" attitude, and they also engage in competitive sports, which I think is more in the domain of ISTPs, because it's tactical strategy, that is strategy to be immediately applied.

    Naturally, this is the same sort of skill that is required for computer programming, surgery, biology, or other applied sciences.

    I think the daredevil stereotype is more in the domain of ESxP. The ISTP is not reckless.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    To summarize don't use IQ to type, it doesn't help (except to identify low IQ people, I suppose )
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It might be worth picking groups that aren't already above average when using examples.
    I was actually pointing out that I believe that mechanics (and probably plumbers) are smarter than average. I wanted to make sure that no one felt talked down to or put down by being placed in the same categories as them.
    (But I'm guessing it is just the confinement to very particular tasks that people object to).

    Also, I was hoping to continue the IQ related discussions here.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #69
    Senior Member Pseudonym_Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    INFJs can tend to look somehow serious, but stoned at the same time.
    Funny you should say serious. I always get the, Im either upset or Im being serious, no matter what mood Im in, my friend throw me into one of those 2 categories.
    Introverted (I) 53.57% Extroverted (E) 46.43%
    Intuitive (N) 54.55% Sensing (S) 45.45%
    Feeling (F) 65.63% Thinking (T) 34.38%
    Judging (J) 63.64% Perceiving (P) 36.36%


    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

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  10. #70
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    I snorted. It was amusing - not as amusing as Wolf taking it seriously, however.
    I am so screwed up today that I didn't even realize this. Someone, please, pass me an aspirin.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

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