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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    (just keeping in mind the j/p switch for introverts)
    That isn't a valid concept.

  2. #22
    That chalkboard guy Matthew_Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    I don't meant to digress from this set of opposites.
    But what do people think of Keirsey opposites?

    They would be the following

    ENTP/ISTJ
    INTP/ESTJ
    ENFP/ISTP
    INFP/ESTP
    ENTJ/ISFJ
    INTJ/ESFJ
    ENFJ/ISFP
    INFJ/ESFP

    Does this make sense from a behavioral perspective?
    For example, Keirsey argues that the ENTP (Inventor) would have the hardest time taking the role of an ISTJ (Inspector) and vice versa.
    Source? I don't recall any such opposites being described by Keirsey like that.

    To answer your specific question, I don't think it'd be too hard take the role of an ENTP when compared to the difficulty of taking on the job of, say, an ENFP or ESFP. While the ENTP is the hardest of the NTs for me to relate to, the common T eases the task just a slight bit.
    If a deaf INFP falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

  3. #23
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    Source? I don't recall any such opposites being described by Keirsey like that.

    To answer your specific question, I don't think it'd be too hard take the role of an ENTP when compared to the difficulty of taking on the job of, say, an ENFP or ESFP. While the ENTP is the hardest of the NTs for me to relate to, the common T eases the task just a slight bit.
    He talks about this in his newest book "Brains and Careers".

    He has the Rationals and Guardians opposing each other and the Idealists and Artisans opposing each other. I personally don't know if that's always the case.. but that's just what he says.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  4. #24
    That chalkboard guy Matthew_Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    He talks about this in his newest book "Brains and Careers".

    He has the Rationals and Guardians opposing each other and the Idealists and Artisans opposing each other. I personally don't know if that's always the case.. but that's just what he says.
    That's certainly an interesting pairing. I can see the basis in the N vs S, but I can't quite see why he does an F vs P and T vs J pairing.
    If a deaf INFP falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

  5. #25
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    That's certainly an interesting pairing. I can see the basis in the N vs S, but I can't quite see why he does an F vs P and T vs J pairing.
    It's interesting how he does it.
    He separates the temperaments into his own groups.

    First you have
    Rationals: INTJ, INTP, ENTJ, ENTP
    Guardians: ISTJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ESFJ
    Artisans: ISTP, ISFP, ESTP, ESFP
    Idealists: INFJ, INFP, ENFJ, ENFP

    He then has another set of four.

    Initiators: ENTJ, ESTJ, ESTP, ENFJ (Extraverted and Directing)
    Coworkers: ENTP, ESFJ, ESFP, ENFP (Extraverted and Informing)
    Contenders: INTJ, ISTJ, ISTP, INFJ (Introverted and Directing)
    Responders: INTP, ISFJ, ISFP, INFP (Introverted and Informing)

    The directing types are more comfortable with taking on leadership roles than the informing types.

    Initiators are the most different from Responders.
    Coworkers are the most different from Contenders.
    Rationals are the most different from Guardians.
    Artisans are the most different from Idealists.

    This is how he has his new set of opposite types.
    It won't be in Please Understand Me II- this is a fairly new idea of his.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  6. #26
    The Duchess of Oddity Queen Kat's Avatar
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    According to a Cognitive Function Test I took lately, I am Ne>Fi>Ni>Se>Ti>Te>Fe>Si, so my exact opposite would be ISFJ. That could be wuite possible, because we usually don't seem to like each other.
    I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was obviously on. I used to fly myself and I said, "There's one terrible pilot."
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  7. #27
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    It's interesting how he does it.
    He separates the temperaments into his own groups.

    First you have
    Rationals: INTJ, INTP, ENTJ, ENTP
    Guardians: ISTJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ESFJ
    Artisans: ISTP, ISFP, ESTP, ESFP
    Idealists: INFJ, INFP, ENFJ, ENFP

    He then has another set of four.

    Initiators: ENTJ, ESTJ, ESTP, ENFJ (Extraverted and Directing)
    Coworkers: ENTP, ESFJ, ESFP, ENFP (Extraverted and Informing)
    Contenders: INTJ, ISTJ, ISTP, INFJ (Introverted and Directing)
    Responders: INTP, ISFJ, ISFP, INFP (Introverted and Informing)

    The directing types are more comfortable with taking on leadership roles than the informing types.

    Initiators are the most different from Responders.
    Coworkers are the most different from Contenders.
    Rationals are the most different from Guardians.
    Artisans are the most different from Idealists.

    This is how he has his new set of opposite types.
    It won't be in Please Understand Me II- this is a fairly new idea of his.
    He talks about this in his newest book "Brains and Careers".
    WHOOAH!!! So he's adopted the Interaction Styles now? (with his own names). I'll have to check this out! While he is the one who first introduced "role-directive/informative" in the eight intelligence types (without dividing them by E/I), I've never heard that he ever considered Berens' groupings.
    Of course, she also has a cross-factor, Process vs outcome, (formerly movement vs control) that ties together those "opposites".

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That isn't a valid concept. [re: Socionics j/p switch]
    Not sure what exactly you mean, but what I was saying was that if we call the MBTI NTP/SFJ "Alphas", we have to remember that in Socionics, it corresponds to ESFj, ENTp, ISFp, INTj. Same first two functions. Of course, the other six are in a different order, but as type (at least in MBTI) is really determined by the first two (and the other six are not unanimously certain), then we can use the names to refer to types having the first two or their MBTI tandem mates in common.
    Last edited by Eric B; 06-30-2009 at 07:41 AM.
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  8. #28
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    WHOOAH!!! So he's adopted the Interaction Styles now? (with his own names). I'll have to check this out! While he is the one who first introduced "role-directive/informative" in the eight intelligence types (without dividing them by E/I), I've never heard that he ever considered Berens' groupings.
    Of course, she also has a cross-factor, Process vs outcome, (cormerly movement vs control) that ties together those "opposites".


    Not sure what exactly you mean, but what I was saying was that if we call the MBTI NTP/SFJ "Alphas", we have to remember that in Socionics, it corresponds to ESFj, ENTp, ISFp, INTj. Same first two functions. Of course, the other six are in a different order, but as type (at least in MBTI) is really determined by the first two (and the other six are not unanimously certain), then we can use the names to refer to types having the first two or their MBTI tandem mates in common.
    Wow.. yea.. this is Berens' groupings. He considers them to be important in terms of the natural roles the personality types take in society.
    On an certain level, it makes a lot of sense to me..
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    I don't meant to digress from this set of opposites.
    But what do people think of Keirsey opposites?

    They would be the following

    ENTP/ISTJ
    INTP/ESTJ
    ENFP/ISTP
    INFP/ESTP
    ENTJ/ISFJ
    INTJ/ESFJ
    ENFJ/ISFP
    INFJ/ESFP

    Does this make sense from a behavioral perspective?
    For example, Keirsey argues that the ENTP (Inventor) would have the hardest time taking the role of an ISTJ (Inspector) and vice versa.
    Most people will say this is a huge NO NO .. I did enjoy dating this type as it was a challenge and i learnt so much. I think though from the INTJ perspective though, this required to much effort.
    I'd try again with this type even though chances are it wouldn't be long term.

  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    [I][SIZE="4"]
    Not sure what exactly you mean, but what I was saying was that if we call the MBTI NTP/SFJ "Alphas", we have to remember that in Socionics, it corresponds to ESFj, ENTp, ISFp, INTj. Same first two functions. Of course, the other six are in a different order, but as type (at least in MBTI) is really determined by the first two (and the other six are not unanimously certain), then we can use the names to refer to types having the first two or their MBTI tandem mates in common.
    Oh. Well, I guess that's worth remembering. I just meant that it wasn't really valid to go around saying that because of functions, the J/P switch is always valid. It really isn't. MBTI INFJs aren't always going to be Socionic INFps because of function order, for instance.

    Although I guess since my point was to give the idea rather than be accurate, one good oversimplification deserves another. Let's just go ahead with your reasoning for now.

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