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  1. #31

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    ENTPs
    ---------
    - seem to trust books and theories a lot more.
    - have a more intelligent and grand style of silliness.
    - can't play chess as well, or at least in my experience (maybe less strategic)
    - are more open about their ideas (ENFPs hold back)
    - are more social (or habitually social)
    - converse more about the social stuff
    - more technically precise

    ENFPs
    --------
    - ask more questions about relationships.
    - are more diplomatic but also subtly strong minded about what they want or don't want
    - converse more about the personal
    - are as interested in seeing the exceptions as the rules
    - have blitz mode (look laid back most of the time, but occasionally go hyper and achieve the ridiculous) (ENTPs do it a bit also, but the ENFP one is like an alter ego level of transformation)
    - talk more psychologically than technically. ie. approach, way of seeing things, etc.
    - have a more rule breaking, reality twisting type of silliness.

    argh, that's probably completely arbitrary .
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  2. #32
    Senior Member thinkinjazz's Avatar
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    Really? They seem equally social to me. shrug
    Holy sh**t a talking muffin!

    All shotguns and lace.

  3. #33

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    I think I meant social in the sense of organising social occasions and getting everyone together. At least the ones I know do a bit more Fe-ing than me. I tend to vanish and reappear more, or when I was younger, go with the best looking option.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  4. #34
    Senior Member thinkinjazz's Avatar
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    yeah that sounds about right
    Holy sh**t a talking muffin!

    All shotguns and lace.

  5. #35
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    I don't see them being a natural progression unless sympathy is a step towards full empathy. They're seen as separate even in the disciplines we just read extracts from. I think the problem here is that we're using the same word, empathy but to mean different things. You think of it as a detached form of shared experience or understanding while I think of it as both this cognitive part as well as the emotional. This determines what is a bigger step.
    Again, I believe the difference is in the colloquial usage. I have never heard anyone speak of empathy as feeling anything in any professional context. If you choose to use the colloquial, that's fine and I'll just make a note of that. But empathy, as described in the other thread, is something doctor's must exhibit with patients - recognizing that the patient is under duress and behaving appropriately. It's what mother's do with newborns - hearing a specific cry and associating it with a certain need. Empathy is the basic understanding. Sympathy is a step toward feeling something on behalf of the person. It's the difference between stepping over a homeless person while realizing that he must be cold, and actually giving him your jacket or crying for him.
    This is what one of the authors was referring to. On the outset, it's really difficult to differentiate between empathy and sympathy. They're both forms of expressing support - is it easy from the outside to tell whether the person expressing it is feeling pity or actually sharing the view of the recipient? I don't know, hard to distinguish as you said above.
    I don't believe empathy has anything to do with support at all.

    Don't you think ENTPs and ENFPs are both capable of empathy except one does experience it more on a cognitive level whereas the other experiences it on a cognitive and emotional level. I think this is why both types are intuitive about people's needs. Both are capable of tapping into empathy. This doesn't happen a lot and is very draining. INFPs do this more. For me, the Fi-tard I am, the sympathy is easier. Because empathy requires not just feeling bad that the other person is going through something but putting myself in their shoes, much better support when I can do that but also a huge drain on resources.
    Yes, both are capable of empathy. And both are capable of sympathy. It just depends where we are at in our emotional evolution. I think you are thinking of putting yourself in someone's shoes as more than what it is. It's more like getting where the person is coming from and seeing their perspective, rather than literally looking at life through their eyes and feeling their pain.

    She should see someone about it. That level of dependence must be draining on you both. Seriously.
    It's funny... ENFPs always say that. I'm not saying that you behave anything like that, but it always makes me laugh how no one ever fesses up to it, writing the wayward person off as unhealthy. I find that behavior in a lot of ENFPs that I know.
    1. For her, I'd say tell her as compassionately as possible that having two people worry and feel the fallout of the event doesn't help either, especially you who's going through it! You would feel much better if she could perhaps concentrate on solutions or just helping you talk through it/forget it -- whatever YOU need. Does she know how unhelpful she's being?

    2. Also, Jeno, it's not your responsibility to make her feel better. One option is gracefully accepting the worry she has on your behalf as her way of showing concern and not another problem for which you need a solution. It's okay to say thanks - that's so kind and leave things there. Don't enable her - I can't imagine it's good for her either. Being the stronger one, you may have to cut her off for her own good to help her.
    Ha! I don't enable her, I call her a drama queen and self centered. I can't count how many times I've said "this isn't about you". Wrong approach?

  6. #36
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Again, I believe the difference is in the colloquial usage. I have never heard anyone speak of empathy as feeling anything in any professional context. If you choose to use the colloquial, that's fine and I'll just make a note of that. But empathy, as described in the other thread, is something doctor's must exhibit with patients - recognizing that the patient is under duress and behaving appropriately. It's what mother's do with newborns - hearing a specific cry and associating it with a certain need. Empathy is the basic understanding. Sympathy is a step toward feeling something on behalf of the person. It's the difference between stepping over a homeless person while realizing that he must be cold, and actually giving him your jacket or crying for him.
    I don't believe empathy has anything to do with support at all.
    It's not just the colloquial usage though. They're related. That's a very narrow interpretation and doesn't follow from the sources you used and the ones I read and quoted above. It was an attempt to understand and apply what the authors were saying above, including the Hojat article quoted above - I don't think that came through.

    Empathy is not just responding to the person's needs - that is simple care. Mothers too, recognizing that a baby cries and responding appropriately is simply providing care. The authors are concerned about empathy because they are interested in how caring for the person affects the quality of care doctors provide. "Defined as a personal quality in the uncritical understanding of a patient's inner experiences and feelings, empathy is the essence of a meaningful patient-doctor relationship" (Hojat et al. Medical Education 2002). That sounds a little more than just a detached understanding of the person's condition and providing appropriate care.

    I agree with you that sympathy is necessarily about feeling. Empathy isn't so clearly defined across these disciplines -- some people do see it (psychologists and some medical doctors) as necessarily involving feeling whereas others (medical doctors including Hojat) see it as more of a cognitive reaction.

    From the examples you gave above, the reaction or state of the observor (empathy or sympathy) and their action (stepping over or giving them a jacket) are actually separate things. While crying for someone else's pain seems to be connected to sympathy (feeling for), it may also be empathy if it is seen as having an emotional component. The difference is the perspective from which you view the person - outside or from their eyes. In either case, you could decide to stop and help the homeless person or step over them. Neither sympathy nor empathy guarantees a certain response. Even with the more detached interpretation you use of empathy, just a cognitive reaction, having seen the homeless person's perspective, you may be more likely to help them than just feeling sorry for them (sympathy). I don't think we can judge the psychological state from the following action alone.


    Yes, both are capable of empathy. And both are capable of sympathy. It just depends where we are at in our emotional evolution. I think you are thinking of putting yourself in someone's shoes as more than what it is. It's more like getting where the person is coming from and seeing their perspective, rather than literally looking at life through their eyes and feeling their pain.
    How is it different to see someone's perspective on life and where they're coming from and seeing life through their eyes? Literally, they mean the same thing. The difference is only in how much you feel for them - as seen in the disciplines above, there seems to be a lack of consensus on whether the feeling is necessary in empathy.

    It's funny... ENFPs always say that. I'm not saying that you behave anything like that, but it always makes me laugh how no one ever fesses up to it, writing the wayward person off as unhealthy. I find that behavior in a lot of ENFPs that I know.
    Honestly, I don't see people around me, ENFP or not, do that. It's bad form in a friendship, don't you think? Instead of providing support, you end up needing it? Regardless of type, isn't this unhealthy?

    It's not about labeling each type example as a wayward person but in essence questioning whether we can fairly extrapolate from the example to a type. In this case, it seems very self-centered. That's not even real sympathy. We are at least known for that as a type. It seems to contradict that basic essence - how can one feel for someone else - deeply, compassionately and yet not prioritize their pain one's own sympathetic pangs? Seems rather counter-intuitive to the characteristics we associate with the type.

    Ha! I don't enable her, I call her a drama queen and self centered. I can't count how many times I've said "this isn't about you". Wrong approach?
    Well, usually, calling someone a drama queen and self-centered doesn't work out productively for me but hey, each one to her own.

    That's funny - I have a 'drama queen' magnet from a friend as a joke. I assumed it was a humorous gift, now I'm beginning to worry

    I would find it difficult to turn to a friend like that in times of need - even for comfort for fear of burdening them and for increasing my own load. I was referring to your comment earlier where you talked about feeling like you had to talk her off a ledge. That's unfortunate. Have you tried telling her what you may like in the case of a future crisis? Like what you need when you are upset.

    I told my sibling this recently since we have such different needs in crisis. I like to talk through things with someone and do whatever has to be done myself (that whole pesky independence thing) whereas he's much more of a doer to show he cares. It's helped, I think.

  7. #37
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    It's not just the colloquial usage though. They're related. That's a very narrow interpretation and doesn't follow from the sources you used and the ones I read and quoted above. It was an attempt to understand and apply what the authors were saying above, including the Hojat article quoted above - I don't think that came through.

    Empathy is not just responding to the person's needs - that is simple care. Mothers too, recognizing that a baby cries and responding appropriately is simply providing care. The authors are concerned about empathy because they are interested in how caring for the person affects the quality of care doctors provide. "Defined as a personal quality in the uncritical understanding of a patient's inner experiences and feelings, empathy is the essence of a meaningful patient-doctor relationship" (Hojat et al. Medical Education 2002). That sounds a little more than just a detached understanding of the person's condition and providing appropriate care.
    I know that it's a narrow interpretation, which is why I said it was the basic definition many times. I think it's clear that you are misunderstanding not only what I wrote, but the sources I quoted. I didn't say that empathy was about responding to needs, I am saying that it is about recognizing that someone has needs to begin with. Trying to understand where someone is coming from. Your quote above completely illustrates what I just said. I don't know where the confusion is coming from.
    From the examples you gave above, the reaction or state of the observor (empathy or sympathy) and their action (stepping over or giving them a jacket) are actually separate things. While crying for someone else's pain seems to be connected to sympathy (feeling for), it may also be empathy if it is seen as having an emotional component. The difference is the perspective from which you view the person - outside or from their eyes. In either case, you could decide to stop and help the homeless person or step over them. Neither sympathy nor empathy guarantees a certain response. Even with the more detached interpretation you use of empathy, just a cognitive reaction, having seen the homeless person's perspective, you may be more likely to help them than just feeling sorry for them (sympathy). I don't think we can judge the psychological state from the following action alone.
    Again, empathy is not about the physical response - I am illustrating that the emotional component actually makes empathy into sympathy. That's the point. Feeling bad WITH someone is different than realizing that someone would feel bad in a particular situation (and not wanting to be the cause of that pain is something also associated with empathy). Empathy is basic and is learned in childhood. Most sociopaths, especially those with NPD, never learned empathy. It is the consensus that sympathy cannot exist without empathy because it is a natural progression. When a child learns that s/he is a separate entity from its surroundings and that other people have feelings too, this is when empathy is learned. "You don't pull mommy's hair because it hurts her when you do that. Don't you remember that time when your brother pulled your hair?" Sympathy comes after empathy in the emotional evolution. Not only do you realize that others have feelings, but you also tune into those feelings yourself. You are capable of feeling bad on mommy's behalf. Sympathy separates tragedy from comedy. I'm not going to go back and forth any more about this, it's really not important.


    Honestly, I don't see people around me, ENFP or not, do that. It's bad form in a friendship, don't you think? Instead of providing support, you end up needing it? Regardless of type, isn't this unhealthy?

    It's not about labeling each type example as a wayward person but in essence questioning whether we can fairly extrapolate from the example to a type. In this case, it seems very self-centered. That's not even real sympathy. We are at least known for that as a type. It seems to contradict that basic essence - how can one feel for someone else - deeply, compassionately and yet not prioritize their pain one's own sympathetic pangs? Seems rather counter-intuitive to the characteristics we associate with the type.
    What I am saying is that you may not realize that this is how ENFPs can be perceived. In crying on my behalf, I see that as self centered. I think by her telling me how much she's suffering on my behalf, she feels that she is telling me that she is supporting me and we are somehow close or something. I see it as annoying and uncomfortable.

  8. #38
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Jeno - there's no misunderstanding of the sources. The problem is the very lack of agreement across psychologists on how empathy is defined - that is the only consensus across fields.

    Perhaps one of the reasons why we can see the concepts so differently is that I'm concentrating more on neuro and social psychology and you're looking more at child psychology that define the terms quite differently. Our basic disagreement is on the definition of the terms themselves and whether sympathy is achieved further in someone's emotional development than empathy and how it affects actions (the homeless example above). I found this neat table put together by neuropsychologists that classifies these terms along several dimensions including actions (helping resulting from these states). Preston and De Waal, Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 2002. Quite cool!

    The discussion is over semantics. That, you rightfully pointed out, is not so important. Regardless, I've actually really enjoyed reading on this subject and learning a little about an area I've always wondered about, how empathy affects a person's actions. Particularly in the realm of doctor-patient care. It's pretty fascinating. We can absolutely agree to disagree on the definitions and I'll note your usage of the term, as well, for future conversations.

    What I am saying is that you may not realize that this is how ENFPs can be perceived. In crying on my behalf, I see that as self centered. I think by her telling me how much she's suffering on my behalf, she feels that she is telling me that she is supporting me and we are somehow close or something. I see it as annoying and uncomfortable.
    We both can certainly agree that the behavior you described is self centered and discomforting. Whether it applies more generally to ENFPs or not, I'll leave that to others who may or may not have similar experiences with ENFPs and MBTI psychologists to decide. It just struck me, I don't have to speak for all ENFPs and their contacts.

    I have a grandmother who does this and she is allowed to call and tell me how she stayed up all night worrying because I was driving cross-country. Other than that, I can't see how this would be okay for anyone who's not going through the event/worry. It's simply not supportive. You could tell her she was supportive, an earlier suggestion simply because you are very kind and clearly care about the her well-being (however we may refer to that psychological state ) We don't disagree on the perceptions of her behavior and I'm sorry you endure it regularly.

    I also just realized I actually meant to say in an earlier post that I can't imagine doing this for a friend (staying up all night worrying) but ended up saying can instead. I'm going to blame the lateness of the hour and edit that post.
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  9. #39
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    The omnipotent feeling... the feeling that if I just work a little harder, put in one more hour, I will have won this particular thing. I am convinced that I can never fail at anything I attempt. And truthfully, I never do fail because once I get motivated to actually do something, I don't stop until I have conquered it. And unfortunately, there are a lot of things that are not in my best interest to continue after a certain point but giving up would mean failure. So I persevere and win but am left feeling empty and drained because it's winning for the sake of winning and I hate the thing that I've won. Usually for me, it's just to prove a point to myself that I can do it.

    So pushiness, but not applied to people's emotions, I guess.
    Meant to respond to this earlier. Yes - I can identify with this both professionally and personally. It certainly works in both areas once motivation has been achieved. I am even more motivated to make a success of something where interpersonal relationships are concerned, as difficult as they may be. Pushiness implies insisting the other person work on it too when they're no longer interested in working on something. That would be counter-productive. Interpersonal relationships simply can't be tackled when one party isn't willing. The motivation has to be there at both sides.

    Having said that, I think our disappointment is that likened to ENTPs and debate. I've heard ENTP friends online and offline say they're disappointed when people don't want to continue debating a subject that they're interested in. It takes two. Similarly, ENFPs are likely disappointed when people are not motivated to continue working on an interpersonal relationship, whatever the relationship may be (friend, family, partner). It's different types of engagement but the perseverence reflected is similar. In either case, one person can't make a difference to the outcome. Pushiness in the emotional realm would actually be quite contrary to an ENFP's perception of people and their prerogative to make individual choices.

  10. #40
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong...

    ENTPs have a good intuition about everything BUT people.

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