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  1. #21
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    According to this list I could be almost as much ENTP than ENFP.
    Finally! I've been trying to tell you all of this time!

  2. #22
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortabunt View Post
    ENFP's are like ENTP's with hearts that pump a vile acid.
    Fixed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    I posted this elsewhere and would like input from ENFPs and ENTPs cause it's all conjecture.
    We didn't seem to get full use of this thread. Needs reviving! I've been thinking about some of these. More conjecture follows:

    An ENFP needs to be in contact with people and influence them in a positive way.
    As an ENTP I like people but mostly I just want to study them to figure out the human condition.
    Working in a profession now where I am in contact with 100-200 people every week and see a new set of hundreds every few months, at least for me, the contact and influence are important but it's in a large systemic manner too. I love when I can help an individual, of course but my goal is really to have a lasting impact on the knowledge or understanding of a group of people. The thought of having influenced these young minds by way developing analytical skills or a different understanding of the world means so much to me in comparison to influencing individuals. Influencing people's lives in ways that help them meet their own potential is the ultimate goal.

    An ENFP could freely offer both sympathy and empathy but would find sympathy easier.
    As an ENTP I'm uncomfortable with sympathy but can offer empathy.
    Trinity - we did have the definitions right! I am so bothered by vagueness in language. Had to check up on it. Old friend: Oxford Dictionary.

    Sympathy: Feelings of pity or sorrow for someone else's misfortune
    Empathy: the ability to empathize, understand and share the feelings of another.

    The latter really stresses this idea of feeling what the other person is, like putting yourself in their shoes. I stand by what I had said earlier. Sympathy is not difficult for me. It comes naturally in the way Fs/Nfs tune in to other people's feelings. As long as the feelings seem genuine, it's not difficult to find genuine sorrow for what they are facing. Empathy is a whole different ballgame - I don't find it easy to put myself in someone else's shoes and feel their pain. That's hard and would seem more inauthentic to me - how could I, I couldn't possibly know what it feels like except in a handful of circumstances and even then, are any two circumstances really the same? I do this more as an exercise if asked directly for advice.



    An ENFP would be more excited about meeting new people.
    As an ENTP Iím more excited about new ideas.
    Not that excited about meeting new people really, for themselves. It's making new connections that excite me. That may differentiate ENFPs from ENTPs - the type of connection. I don't like big gatherings or parties that are loud and the conversations are surface level only. On the other hand, meeting people from diverse backgrounds and listening to them talk about what they do, what drives them is really fascinating to me. I'm quite easily entertained - talk to me about babies, car hydraulics, antique weapons, flying robots, chimp psychology...as long as the person speaks passionately and with some knowledge, I am hooked. I look at all of these, including children as people's hobbies - what they voluntarily decide to spend time on, it must be interesting for them to do so. In the process, I am always learning something new, filing away that piece of information on any of the above for later use.

    The connection should be genuine and involve some emotion - that's important. I like to leave the person feeling like they have been understood and heard, which they have and feeling energized in turn by what they've shared.

    An ENFP wants to feel loved and supported.
    As an ENTP I want to feel respected and admired.
    I'll add a caveat - feeling loved and supported is very important by someone I respect and admire. I hear a lot of ENFP women complain about not being taken seriously because we like to present a rather light and humorous image in real life. There's nothing more frustrating for me than being treated like a child - to be patronized or not treated as an equal in intellect. It's quite satisfying to be respected and acknowledged by someone I admire. Of course, there are strong emotional needs that are met by partners. A person who successfully lands an ENFP and manages to keep them engaged must possess a truly gargantuan capacity to love.

    An ENFP can be quite expressive.
    As an ENTP I can be less expressive.
    Yes I think - especially in close relationships where strong emotions are involved.

    An ENFP is more likely to adapt their emotional expressions to those theyíre interacting with.
    As an ENTP Iím more likely to mirror emotional expressions.
    I SO have seen this happen several times to me this past summer that it's crystal. I find ENFPs actually change their emotional tenor to match the person they are speaking with. I don't do this consciously or with an aim to mainpulate - it's pretty natural. if I'm talking with someone who's very expressive and exuberant, I'll tap into that feeling at least on a basic level and express it. I'll also reflect anger/frustration/sadness - whatever the other person is feeling easily. It doesn't imply empathy, I'm not taking on their feelings (very INFP) but can sense them and tune into that frequency.

    With ENTPs, it is a more obviously detached exercise of 'what would be appropriate' in this situation. They may even mirror the speaker's words or expressions but the ENTPs I know don't pass the sincerity meter regularly on this count. I can tell when it's pure Fe.

    So, instead of just adding to the differences, I have noticed just off-hand some remarkable similarities. Let me know if this is way off-the-mark for you guys.

    1. Both ENFPs and ENTPs are quite good at making other people feel good about themselves. We're natural charmers. However, when faced with a similar creature ourselves, we're both very suspicious of the other. I find this a lot. Hey, wait, that's my line or hmmm.... what is this person trying to get from me?
    2. Both types enjoy and are fairly competent at the chase. When the tables are turned, similar surprise as above. Why is this person rushing at me at top speed? What do they see that I don't? Why are they not more discriminating? Flee!
    3. For whatever goals, both types are fascinated by people. We have a good knack for figuring out what people need and in most cases, giving them whatever it is. At the same time, both types seem really uncomfortable with being subjected to the laser beam scrutiny. Very suspicious - I know I am. I'll volunteer all sorts of info but try and make me a subject of your own personal experiment and again the response is -flee!
    4. For types that crave human connection, really intimate connections are actually quite difficult and painful. I find both types are quite awkward and shy at this level of contact, one on one. It's so much easier entertaining in groups. Just a thought or two based on the last few months of observation.

  3. #23
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Sympathy: Feelings of pity or sorrow for someone else's misfortune
    Empathy: the ability to empathize, understand and share the feelings of another.
    Sorry, no. (and you can't define a word by using the word itself...) Sympathy is sharing the feelings of others, empathy is understanding the feelings - for the most basic definition.

    For a stricter definition:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/632794-post2.html

    sympathy and compassion are the same word. syn+pathos (greek) or con+pati or passio (latin) literally mean "to suffer with"

    I'll add a caveat - feeling loved and supported is very important by someone I respect and admire. I hear a lot of ENFP women complain about not being taken seriously because we like to present a rather light and humorous image in real life. There's nothing more frustrating for me than being treated like a child - to be patronized or not treated as an equal in intellect. It's quite satisfying to be respected and acknowledged by someone I admire. Of course, there are strong emotional needs that are met by partners. A person who successfully lands an ENFP and manages to keep them engaged must possess a truly gargantuan capacity to love.
    In a lot of ways, I think the ENxPs share an inability to give up on things. This is why I think ENFPs can cling to people who show them little to no love at all. They can spend their lives trying to make a person love them, trying to connect... It's not pretty. Nor is the ENTP version.

    With ENTPs, it is a more obviously detached exercise of 'what would be appropriate' in this situation. They may even mirror the speaker's words or expressions but the ENTPs I know don't pass the sincerity meter regularly on this count. I can tell when it's pure Fe.
    How can you possibly tell? Any chance that you could be wrong?

    4. For types that crave human connection, really intimate connections are actually quite difficult and painful. I find both types are quite awkward and shy at this level of contact, one on one. It's so much easier entertaining in groups. Just a thought or two based on the last few months of observation.
    I wholly agree - even for us types that do not crave human "connection".

  4. #24
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Sorry, no. (and you can't define a word by using the word itself...) Sympathy is sharing the feelings of others, empathy is understanding the feelings - for the most basic definition.
    Dudette, I used the dictionary, a manual one off my shelf. Quoted from it for the definitions. That's where I usually go for definitions
    The expansion was mine.

    There seems to be some real difficulty separating these two out even in the disciplinary sources you quoted.

    I'll quote some wider sources too and then come back to the ones you used:
    Medicine:
    Empathy and the Practice of Medicine: Beyond Pills and the Scalpel
    Edited by Howard M. Spiro, Curnel, Peschel and St. James

    "Empathy is the feeling that persons or objects arouse in us as as projections of our feelings and thoughts. It is evident when "I and you" becomes "I am you" or atleast "I might be you". ..it is difficult to distinguish empathy from sympathy, where empathy feels "I am you" sympathy may well mean "I want to help you."

    The authors go on to talk about method actors putting themselves in the position of the character, empathizing with him/her to elicit real reactions. I think this matches what the dictionary said pretty closely. The book does quote Freud and says Freud largely ignored empathy but more recent psychiatrists argue against empathy being purely neurophysiological reaction, "that the good physician can empathize without actually feeling anything."

    From the sources you mentioned: The one from Anna Freud seemed interesting but I haven't found enough of her work directly and easily available where I can get more insight into what she was suggesting. The mother-child bond is a difficult one to understand this given the difficulty of putting oneself into the other's shoes for a baby.

    I couldn't get access to the Hojat article you quoted but he is first author that defines empathy, at least in medicine, particularly in relation to sympathy.

    Physician Empathy: Definition, Components, Measurement, and Relationship to Gender and Specialty
    Mohammadreza Hojat, Ph.D., Joseph S. Gonnella, M.D., Thomas J. Nasca, M.D., Salvatore Mangione, M.D., Michael Vergare, M.D., and Michael Magee, M.D.
    American Journal of Psychiatry 2002

    "Although researchers agree on the positive role of empathy in interpersonal relationships (3), they are divided on the definition and, hence, the measurement of empathy (4). Similarly, research on empathy in medicine has been hampered both by a lack of conceptual clarity and lack of an operational measure of physician empathy.

    Empathy has been described as a concept involving cognitive as well as affective or emotional domains (5). The cognitive domain of empathy involves the ability to understand another personís inner experiences and feelings and a capability to view the outside world from the other personís perspective (6). The affective domain involves the capacity to enter into or join the experiences and feelings of another person (6, 7). The affective relationships that elicit emotional response are conceptually more relevant to sympathy than to empathy (3).

    Although the concepts of empathy and sympathy are often mistakenly tossed into one terminological basket, they should be distinguished in patient-care situations (8). Both concepts involve sharing, but empathetic physicians share their understanding, while sympathetic physicians share their emotions with their patients (9). The two concepts do not, however, function independently. For example, in one study (6), we found a correlation coefficient of 0.45 between the two.[/QUOTE]

    So the way I understand it, from a quick reading, for the purposes of understanding empathy in physicians, empathy is seen as being able to see the world from the other person's viewpoint - sharing it. It does not, however, imply an emotional reaction or emotional component. Sympathy is feeling sorrow for the person, certainly an emotional component but does not imply seeing the world from the sufferer's eyes. Makes sense?

    I think the main point of difference comes from the philosopher you quoted, Switankowski, who says the exact opposite to make this discussion so much easier.



    I also found the Baron-Cohen quote really apropos from your original post:
    "Dr. Baron-Cohen: It's part of empathy. Theory of mind is being able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes, being able to imagine what's going on in his or her mind. But imagining someone else's thoughts or feelings is only part of empathy. The other part is having [an appropriate] emotional reaction. The distinction is important because a psychopath might be able to figure out somebody else's thoughts quite accurately but wouldn't necessarily have an appropriate emotional response."
    He uses a similar understanding as Hojat above, in seeing empathy as being able to put yourself in the person's shoes. At the same time, he actually stresses the emotional component as important. I think that's where his rewriting was focused and where the real lack of consensus is in psychology from these readings. Anyway, it's been fascinating.

    What I understand from these sources - both the majority of your original ones and some of the medicine and psychology/psychiatry based ones I came across was that there is a consensus at least on the meaning of the terms - sympathy is feeling sorrow or pity for whereas empathy is putting yourself in the other person's shoes. There is however a lack of consensus on whether empathy involves feeling with or not. That's pretty fascinating. In a sense they took the dictionary meanings of these words and are examining them further for where these originate and what reactions they elicit in humans - purely cognitive, one school of thought or cognitive and emotional, a second school of thought.

    Would this be better placed in the empathy versus sympathy thread?

  5. #25
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    I posted this elsewhere and would like input from ENFPs and ENTPs cause it's all conjecture.

    What would you say are the differences between you and the other type? What do you/donít you relate from the points below? What other consistent points of difference do you see.


    An ENFP can be very sensitive and easily discouraged by other people.
    As an ENTP its damn near impossible to offend, upset or discourage me.

    An ENFP needs to be in contact with people and influence them in a positive way.
    As an ENTP I like people but mostly I just want to study them to figure out the human condition.

    An ENFP could freely offer both sympathy and empathy but would find sympathy easier.
    As an ENTP I'm uncomfortable with sympathy but can offer empathy.

    An ENFP would be more excited about meeting new people.
    As an ENTP Iím more excited about new ideas.

    An ENFP wants to feel loved and supported.
    As an ENTP I want to feel respected and admired.

    An ENFP sees things as right vs wrong and ethical vs unethical.
    As an ENTP I see things as correct vs incorrect and logical vs illogical.

    An ENFP can be quite expressive.
    As an ENTP I can be less expressive.

    An ENFP is more likely to adapt their emotional expressions to those theyíre interacting with.
    As an ENTP Iím more likely to mirror emotional expressions.

    An ENFP likes to resonate with what someone else is saying and is more likely to argue using persuasion.
    As an ENTP debating is sport and I have no problems switching sides, Iím more likely use facts.

    An ENFP would have strong ethics.
    As an ENTP many of mine are bendable.

    ... then I got bored, we both do that.



    I know there's an ENTP vs ENFP thread floating around but it seems the fluff vs content ratio is about 17:1, I'm all for fluff but old fluff is boring, so y'all get a new thread.
    Sounds right to me.
    __________________


    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  6. #26
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    In a lot of ways, I think the ENxPs share an inability to give up on things. This is why I think ENFPs can cling to people who show them little to no love at all. They can spend their lives trying to make a person love them, trying to connect... It's not pretty. Nor is the ENTP version.
    Interesting. What is the ENTP version?

    The ENFP clinging to people who show them little love is a little different, from my view, than what you represented. I certainly can't imagine spending a lifetime trying to make someone love me - it seems futile. Because we can sympathize, we understand love is or isn't, it can't be created. While sad, that is one feeling or state that's remarkably easy to sympathize and even empathize with. We've all been there before, being loved but not being able to love in return.

    I think ambiguity is difficult to handle for ENFPs -- we've discussed this before. In that situation, yes, guilty of holding on way past the expiration date. That's really rare though. It only happens, for me, once I make and feel that emotional connection. The depth of it may differ vastly across the participants but there was something there. Even in that case, when things don't work out or feelings aren't reciprocated to the same extent, it is not about holding on to the other person and trying to influence their view. I would not want to do that - it would really hurt my pride. It has so little to do with the other person. At my end, it's about feeling betrayed by my own intuition, something I take pride in and to have misinterpreted the situation so much (we may be naive but we hate being fooled, especially by ourselves). That sadness will remain so much longer than any hope for revival. It's also about wanting a certain kind of closure - understanding as fully as possible what happened. The lack of that will make us hang on longer to keep working on understanding what happened. How could we be so wrong about our interpretation?

    In most cases, bouncing ahead and on to the next adventure is very much our style as well and I can identify with that in the majority of circumstances in the past when things didn't work out.

    How can you possibly tell? Any chance that you could be wrong?
    Sure, of course. I've known one of these people in particular over several years. In several cases, the spouse actually brought it up and backed up my perception. I suspect if this feels off for you or most of the ENTPs reading, the problem here may be less of misinterpretation of these particular cases and more of generalizing from a very small sample to a whole type. It may just be the friend in question, I can certainly see that.

    I wholly agree - even for us types that do not crave human "connection".
    Sorry - the NFness just slips through. I don't mean connection in terms of emotional. That is a particular type, but understanding the human condition the way all ENPs seem to want implies some connection, some engagement, emotional or not. Contact seems to not capture that well.

  7. #27
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Dudette, I used the dictionary, a manual one off my shelf. Quoted from it for the definitions. That's where I usually go for definitions
    The expansion was mine.
    Yes, I know... I was basically telling you to get a new dictionary!


    There seems to be some real difficulty separating these two out even in the disciplinary sources you quoted.
    The only difficulty that I see is in the actual definition versus the colloquial usage, which confuses things. It is widely accepted that sympathy is a part of empathy - a natural progression. There is some understanding of what a person is going through with empathy. And you can further that emotional growth by actually feeling something on that person's behalf which is sympathy.

    Now, can you truly feel what another person is feeling with accuracy or are you projecting what you would feel in that situation, or are you just feeling pity?... well, that is debatable and way out of my league.

    I feel that Fe is empathetic and Fi is sympathetic, and that's how I make sense out of those functions - and that's how I separate the ENxPs initially. I can logically know what you must probably feeling be if I see you in a bad place and adjust my behavior accordingly, but you will never see me crying on your behalf which is the domain of you wonderful and strange ENFPs.

    In fact, to an Fe user, Fi seems to be able to want to upstage you and your emotions. A classic example is when something really bad happens to me, I get all riled up and upset. Then I get an email from my ENFP friend telling me that she can barely sleep and is up all night because I am hurt. She feels horrible and can't focus because of what I must be going through. And I know that's her way of explaining things, but it makes me think that she expects me to feel bad for her when I am already troubled with other things. I then spend an hour trying to calm her down and make her feel better. There has got to be a better way to view this and handle this. What sort of response should I be giving to her instead?

  8. #28
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Interesting. What is the ENTP version?
    The omnipotent feeling... the feeling that if I just work a little harder, put in one more hour, I will have won this particular thing. I am convinced that I can never fail at anything I attempt. And truthfully, I never do fail because once I get motivated to actually do something, I don't stop until I have conquered it. And unfortunately, there are a lot of things that are not in my best interest to continue after a certain point but giving up would mean failure. So I persevere and win but am left feeling empty and drained because it's winning for the sake of winning and I hate the thing that I've won. Usually for me, it's just to prove a point to myself that I can do it.

    So pushiness, but not applied to people's emotions, I guess.

  9. #29
    Senior Member thinkinjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gewitter27 View Post
    My reactions:

    ENFP:
    ENTP:
    Peepwall- um not that I know of = p
    Holy sh**t a talking muffin!

    All shotguns and lace.

  10. #30
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Yes, I know... I was basically telling you to get a new dictionary!
    Should have expected that. No can do! Oxford is the best (no bias here at all).

    My reading was that the dictionary was right in terms of one just identifying with the feeling while the other meant a shared view of the source of the pain. The dictionary did however, on closer reading, attribute both to empathy -- the cognitive and emotional part. Psychologists and doctors writing on empathy in relation to patients don't seem to have a consensus on this.

    The only difficulty that I see is in the actual definition versus the colloquial usage, which confuses things. It is widely accepted that sympathy is a part of empathy - a natural progression. There is some understanding of what a person is going through with empathy. And you can further that emotional growth by actually feeling something on that person's behalf which is sympathy.

    Now, can you truly feel what another person is feeling with accuracy or are you projecting what you would feel in that situation, or are you just feeling pity?... well, that is debatable and way out of my league.
    I don't see them being a natural progression unless sympathy is a step towards full empathy. They're seen as separate even in the disciplines we just read extracts from. I think the problem here is that we're using the same word, empathy but to mean different things. You think of it as a detached form of shared experience or understanding while I think of it as both this cognitive part as well as the emotional. This determines what is a bigger step.

    I feel that Fe is empathetic and Fi is sympathetic, and that's how I make sense out of those functions - and that's how I separate the ENxPs initially. I can logically know what you must probably feeling be if I see you in a bad place and adjust my behavior accordingly, but you will never see me crying on your behalf which is the domain of you wonderful and strange ENFPs.
    This is what one of the authors was referring to. On the outset, it's really difficult to differentiate between empathy and sympathy. They're both forms of expressing support - is it easy from the outside to tell whether the person expressing it is feeling pity or actually sharing the view of the recipient? I don't know, hard to distinguish as you said above.

    I agree with Fi being associated with shared feelings but it does not always accompany a shared worldview. For example, compassion implies feeling sorrow for someone's misfortune, no matter what it is and whether we have experienced it or not or can imagine ourselves experiencing it at some point. I can see that happening easily - lots of things elicit an emotional response personally, including some Kodak moments or TLC ads that really shouldn't have that effect That's sympathy and I think you're right in that ENTPs with Fe don't feel that sorrow?

    Don't you think ENTPs and ENFPs are both capable of empathy except one does experience it more on a cognitive level whereas the other experiences it on a cognitive and emotional level. I think this is why both types are intuitive about people's needs. Both are capable of tapping into empathy. This doesn't happen a lot and is very draining. INFPs do this more. For me, the Fi-tard I am, the sympathy is easier. Because empathy requires not just feeling bad that the other person is going through something but putting myself in their shoes, much better support when I can do that but also a huge drain on resources.

    In fact, to an Fe user, Fi seems to be able to want to upstage you and your emotions. A classic example is when something really bad happens to me, I get all riled up and upset. Then I get an email from my ENFP friend telling me that she can barely sleep and is up all night because I am hurt. She feels horrible and can't focus because of what I must be going through. And I know that's her way of explaining things, but it makes me think that she expects me to feel bad for her when I am already troubled with other things. I then spend an hour trying to calm her down and make her feel better. There has got to be a better way to view this and handle this.
    That's terrible! Same friend who keeps sending you cards and checking in about the friendship?

    What sort of response should I be giving to her instead?
    She should see someone about it. That level of dependence must be draining on you both. Seriously.

    I can't imagine staying up worrying about my friends well-being if they were angry or worried about a life event. Sometimes a family member's illness or struggles will keep me up but I'd never share that with the person involved because it shows dependence and that would be very unappealing to me. Also it will mostly focus on finding a solution to help them, not just worry.

    1. For her, I'd say tell her as compassionately as possible that having two people worry and feel the fallout of the event doesn't help either, especially you who's going through it! You would feel much better if she could perhaps concentrate on solutions or just helping you talk through it/forget it -- whatever YOU need. Does she know how unhelpful she's being?

    2. Also, Jeno, it's not your responsibility to make her feel better. One option is gracefully accepting the worry she has on your behalf as her way of showing concern and not another problem for which you need a solution. It's okay to say thanks - that's so kind and leave things there. Don't enable her - I can't imagine it's good for her either. Being the stronger one, you may have to cut her off for her own good to help her.
    Last edited by ergophobe; 10-24-2009 at 02:31 PM.

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