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  1. #81
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Stereo typical Englashman doesn't exists anymore, probably since the 60's/70's... Old money and distinguished people are probably 1-2% of the entire population. Think rude, poorly mannered lager lout and you have the average 25 year old - foot ball fans who are particulalrly unpleasant... even its a bit of a generalisation but truer than I think your perception is likely to be.

    The well heeled, gentleman is an exceptionately rare breed, and the upper classes etc are probably 1-2% of the population
    Maybe that's true where you're living, but I wouldn't say that represents the average person or even the average football fan I meet. I'm not talking about the upper class stereotype or the 'gentleman', just the average man in the average street. Americans who visit are surprised by the reserve we still have, regardless of class. Having read about Victorian society, it seems to me we're still rude in the same ways we were always rude and polite in the same ways we were always polite, and if anything, we've probably gotten somewhat less rude since the Victorian era - one of the reasons I think that the more rules a and regulations a society has for public conduct and interaction, the ruder it may become in other ways.

  2. #82
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    Maybe that's true where you're living, but I wouldn't say that represents the average person or even the average football fan I meet. I'm not talking about the upper class stereotype or the 'gentleman', just the average man in the average street. Americans who visit are surprised by the reserve we still have, regardless of class. Having read about Victorian society, it seems to me we're still rude in the same ways we were always rude and polite in the same ways we were always polite, and if anything, we've probably gotten somewhat less rude since the Victorian era - one of the reasons I think that the more rules a and regulations a society has for public conduct and interaction, the ruder it may become in other ways.

    If I'm in the states people say please and thank you as standard, they offer to help women with bags for them, open doors etc etc. I find the US startlingly polite in comparison to the UK travel I've done. My larger lout analogy may be extreme but core manners are not showing in the UK anymore and their is a huge population who are larger louts. Basic manners have all but dissapeared.

    Yes I agree London is not a fair representation of the UK but I'm pretty well traveled in the UK and I still say US far outstrips it for basic manners of the man in the street. Call centers with rude staff, in the supermarket etc, etc...

    Best service staff I've come across are Ozzies by miles

    And I completely agree in many places England has reserve... but that is different from general etiquet and manners

  3. #83
    Une Femme est une femme paperoceans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Portugal - ESFP
    Austria - EVIL
    Aww, I used to live in Austria... It's not that bad! Very nice people.

    Austria: ISTJ
    Between that cigarillo and sticking my finger down my throat to see if I could DT, I feel like puking RN.

    Read my Blog.

  4. #84
    Une Femme est une femme paperoceans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogdecree View Post
    What people donít seem to understand is that the US is large enough and populous enough that it has developed two brains, or two main philosophical cultures, and thus would be suited better if we were to divide the US into states. This would be like trying to classify Europe (or more accurately the EU) in one MBTI category, and if I were to do that, I would class them as ESFP. Hopefully I made my point, though Iím serious on what I would classify Europe as in accord to my bias.

    I don't see how the citizens of the US are getting ESTJ without any consideration to other factors, I'm guessing others are judging the US based off of it's foreign policy and are painting a picture with that, the people of the US, obviously diverse, but tend to favor F's over T's, and, P's over J's, this I am quite confident in. This obviously differs from state to state, but the more populous states (thus the majority of the US) are ESFP. California holds about 12% of the US population, and ESTJ is almost one of the furthest mbti scores one could come up with for Ca.

    I would break down the US it would be West and East coast (not including Alaska) ESFP with a little ENFP, South ESTJ, Mid West ISTJ


    In regards to England and Sweden, (perhaps I'm suffering from transnational misconceptions myself) I don't see how those two are ISTJ, nothing in those two countries in regards to it's citizens suggest any traditional or authority respecting schools of thought that I can observe. I would denote those two with P's at least, though I donít claim authority in this regard.
    I agree. I've lived all over the states and say... people in California are completely different than people in New York

    United States of America:
    Southern states: ESFJ
    East Coast: INTJ
    West Coast: ESFP
    New England: xNTP/xNTJ
    Mid-West: ISFJ

    This is just based on personal experience. My family is from the South and I grew up around Southerners and Northerners (East coast & New England). Then I moved to Cali when I was 15 and I've been here for about five years. I haven't been in the Mid-West, but from the ones I've met they seem to keep to themselves but kind of remind me of Southern folk.
    Between that cigarillo and sticking my finger down my throat to see if I could DT, I feel like puking RN.

    Read my Blog.

  5. #85
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    If I'm in the states people say please and thank you as standard, they offer to help women with bags for them, open doors etc etc. I find the US startlingly polite in comparison to the UK travel I've done. My larger lout analogy may be extreme but core manners are not showing in the UK anymore and their is a huge population who are larger louts. Basic manners have all but dissapeared.

    Yes I agree London is not a fair representation of the UK but I'm pretty well traveled in the UK and I still say US far outstrips it for basic manners of the man in the street. Call centers with rude staff, in the supermarket etc, etc...
    Oh I absolutely agree about staff, lol. Customer service training is not our forte.

    To some extent manners are just perceived differently in different countries. For example, mentioning religion in a lot of contexts is considered bad manners here - it might offend someone - when it would be not in the USA. As is answering 'yes' to the question 'Are you good at ___?' At most you can say 'I'm alright', or 'I'm qualified' or something, but Brits are extremely sensitive to any hint of boastfulness. I've heard teachers comment that in the USA, it's much easier to get students to talk about what they're good at instead of what they're bad at, in fact they launch straight into a monologue about their strengths, but here, there's a deeply felt reluctance.

    I'm not sure about pleases, thanks and opening doors, which everyone I know who isn't a little autistic knows when to do, but when it comes to offering people help, the reluctance there is often due to shyness, not wanting to draw attention to yourself or risk embarrassing yourself or bothering someone who'd rather be left alone or might be in a bad mood (there's the Introverted assumption that this is a strong possibility in most situations), or the well-studied phenomenon of groups of people being unwilling to step forward in a crisis or problem because of the instinctive self-doubt humans feel in these situations - the more other people are around who could help, the longer we wait until we're sure there's no one who could do a better job than we could. In experiments people have been filmed nervously watching a fire in a small shop get dangerously large before finally the fear of the fire outstrips the fear of being the one to sound the alarm and the confusion of wondering why no one else is doing so either (for some reason we usually don't imagine that it would be the same reason we aren't). These problems are more prevalent and powerful in some countries than in others.

  6. #86
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    Oh I absolutely agree about staff, lol. Customer service training is not our forte.
    LOL - go Ozzies!

    I probably over stated the larger lout bit, but a fair few US people really beleive we are Dickensian Britain.

    US is just very different than Europe, I don't find Europe all that mannerly either, but I enjoy it ....

    If you visit Cambridge - University city here, they are OK, wouldn't offer to be helpful or volenteer aything much. Ann Arbour - an old uiveristy city there - they fall over themselves being polite, offering to carry bags - not service staff, just passers by... Ok maybe not truely typical of the average American but I found similar acts in Oregon, and the various airports I've touched down in... You just don't get it here...

    Snuff, off topic... I do fully agree the English are very reserved.

  7. #87
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    The Houses of Parliament, with their Right Honourable this and Noble Lord that, being a fine example. And although its members can come across as downright immature and opportunistic in their exchanges with each other, I have to say I don't envy the reverence Americans are expected to show for high-ranking politicians, whom I think should be treated as the employees that they are.
    There's occasionally actual brawls in japanese parliment. They'll throw shoes at each other and actually fight.

    This's actually staged from both sides, and individuals are called the day before and warned to wear soft soled shoes. It's a publicity stunt to show that they're willing to 'fight for their voter's opinions!'.

    Hei, if it works, it works, right? ^.^

  8. #88
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    If I'm in the states people say please and thank you as standard, they offer to help women with bags for them, open doors etc etc. I find the US startlingly polite in comparison to the UK travel I've done. My larger lout analogy may be extreme but core manners are not showing in the UK anymore and their is a huge population who are larger louts. Basic manners have all but dissapeared.

    Yes I agree London is not a fair representation of the UK but I'm pretty well traveled in the UK and I still say US far outstrips it for basic manners of the man in the street. Call centers with rude staff, in the supermarket etc, etc...
    So what are the negatives of the USA out of curiosity?
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  9. #89
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I'd say xNTJ myself - not a P because it's not laser fare like France, it's pretty full on intense. The Scots don't let go their history, are pretty agressive and actually pretty invenetive - many inventions come from Scots - given it's a tiny country, they also pretty visionary (a fair few things we take forgranted were invented by the Scots).

    Great Scottish Inventors
    Category:Scottish inventors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Exactly what I was going too say!!!!!! I would say we are quite ENTP. Think Billy Connolly, Frankie Boyle ect All typical ENTP humour. Mind you I can see ESTP to an extent. Scotland also has a history of gorrilla warfare If you look up Robert the Bruce you will see. So I'm sticking with ENTP. Also in scotland NT humour goes down well with everyone, especially SPs. My SP friends find my sense of humour hilarious which I'm sure wouldn't happen in other countries.
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  10. #90
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I think London tends to bring out the worst in Aussies, Kiwis and Saffas. I'm told there's a ray gun in Heathrow which subtracts 40 IQ points, instills a raging thirst and inflated sense of patriotism in new antipodean arrivals. It also predisposes them to seek out bartending jobs.

    Actually I think part of the problem (there are a few bigger, more obvious ones) is that most Aussies come from urban areas and when they go overseas they feel they have to act out an "outback Aussie" persona in order to live up to expectations. So they drink a lot, make too much noise, exaggerate perceived Aussie traits (eg confidence, machismo, irreverence, informality) and generally act obnoxiously. Mostly in groups where they attempt to out-Aussie one another. Sorry about that. If it's any consolation they are often haunted by guilt once they return to Aus.

    When my parents travelled around Europe in the 70s they told everyone they were kiwis because Aussies had such a terrible reputation. Sounds like the kiwis have caught up, which surprises me I must admit.
    The Kiwis I know tend to hang out with the Aussies a lot, and I'm afraid my poor opinion was partly sealed on Waitangi (sp?) Day, the Kiwi national day. There were literally thousands of them on a pub crawl in my area, and a friend who lives nearby (and shares some of my opinions) said that by one o'clock in the afternoon they were so pissed that they were peeing and throwing up in people's front yards.

    I haven't had a lot of success in forming friendships with Kiwis, but I have been friends with a few Aussies, who have inevitably been women (I'm also female) at least a few years older than me, and clearly somewhat different from "the group."

    I do think there are things about these people I could enjoy/appreciate if I could look beyond the bad points. They tend to be easy going, don't really dislike anyone, spontaneous...etc. And frankly, I may be a bit jealous because they seem to be having more fun than me in a lot of cases

    One of the weird things I would say about the Kiwis I've met here is a lot of them don't seem to have much personality. Of any type! Less than the Aussies. I have to wonder if it's something to do with them being subsumed into "the group." Like, if I could get them away from the crowd, their real personality might come out more, and one I could get along with better...

    I read a thread on an INFJ discussion board, I think it was, where someone said it seemed like there was a serious lack of INFJ types in Aussie society and everyone was expected to be ESTP or maybe ESFP. One person who commented agreed that Aus society tended to uphold the ESTP ideal, but that it seemed like there were plenty of people of other types (including NFs and NTs) but they were going along with the ESxP crowd because, well, that seemed like the way to go. I thought there could be a lot of truth in that.

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