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  1. #31
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Thanks for explaining it all to me those who replied. I must admit I'm more sold on the idea of NP NJ groupings myself now that I've read the replies, it's nice to see I'm not the only one.
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  2. #32
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Ironically, while there might be bias since Keirsey is an N, it could also mean that he (1) understands those groupings better because he is N and doesn't understand S as well and (2) there's a bias when people automatically read bias into a grouping pattern. What you state here to be your perception wasn't necessarily his perception, and he might have made that pairing for perfectly valid reasons to suit his goals, rather than trying to project that N is deeper in some way; the bias in this instance would be on the part of the reader.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I agree.

    Although I would say one thing that annoys me is the asymmetrical system. It very strongly conveys an N bias, by implying that Ns are "deeper" and are more affected by T/F than J/P. Which, in my (albeit limited) experience, they're not. Also, there's a little bit of unfairness (in my view) that SFJs and STJs are highly compatible and similar in many ways, and get to be categorized together... while NFJs get stuck with NFPs who we have to struggle to understand, and NTJs get stuck with NTPs, who they have to struggle to understand.
    All of this would still assume that the groupings are arbitrary. Again, Keirsey's groups are basically pre-existing units: Kretschmer's character styles. Which had apparently followed Kant's interpretation of the Galen temperaments.
    here is my take on it (although I'm still not sure, I'm just thinking out loud):

    Si is one reality. the goal is always to use the known reality as the standard which one applies one judging's function towards. So in this case there is a connection for SJ, at least... they're working towards these common goals, the difference is simply in approach (T is impersonal, F is personal/social).. but they are still having the same groupmind, same goal, same standard, and just working in a complementary fashion to flesh out that picture.

    Ni is infinite realities that are rifled through. In this case, the judging function is more much important in terms of determining goal, thus there's a bigger delineation between NTJ and NFJ -- their goals (I think) are more affected by their judging functions.
    that sounds like basically the right idea.
    I had tied them together with the Galen concepts by pointing out that the Se preference makes the SP (Sanguine) quicker to take action (Which is the SP's "pragmatism" and the Sanguine's expressiveness), and also quicker to drop responsibilities, which ultimately ties into the Sanguine's "people-focus" and the SP's "motive-focus".
    Si preference makes the SJ (Melancholic) slower to take action (and hence "cooperative" and reserved), and also task or structure-focused. Everything has to line up with what is familiar.

    For people whose preference is intuition, the action skills will not be determined by whether the perception is inward or outward. That is too "concrete", where they are abstract. So rather, it will be the judging function the perception is paired with that determines their action. Abstract Thinking will be more pragmatic and structure focused (the Choleric's aggressiveness and task focus), and abstract Feeling will be more cooperative and motive focused (the Phlegmatic's being a catalyst moving others to action, and people-focused).

    So this is why the symmetry is broken across S/N. Even though the cognitive processes may look like the best thing types can have in common, the temperaments, keep in mind, have the same core needs, and for those with a concrete preference, they are tied to the Sensing attitude, and for those with an abstract preference, it is just the presence of the same two functions, regardless of the attitude, that meet the need.

    Membership/belonging (in a structure) responsibility and duty: Si
    Freedom to act, make an impact: Se
    Mastery and Control/Knowledge and Competence: Ne+Ti or Ni+Te
    Meaning & significance/Unique identity: Ne+Fi or Ni+Fe.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  3. #33
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Here's a new diagram showing the "twist" from the original Galen temperaments (And DISC and Social Styles) to the Kant/Kretschmer/Keirsey system:
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  4. #34
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Why is Keirsey's perspective more valuable than anyone elses? That's what everyone keeps implying, and I find it to be mildly annoying and deferent behavior.
    In another thread, you said function orders in type were true just because Jung said so and he just "knows." Why is Jung's perspective more valuable than anyone else's?
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  5. #35

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    Wolfy's random thought for the day...

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  6. #36
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    All of this would still assume that the groupings are arbitrary. Again, Keirsey's groups are basically pre-existing units: Kretschmer's character styles. Which had apparently followed Kant's interpretation of the Galen temperaments.
    Once again, why are those the right ones? Why is using the same old four humor categories that have been recycled by Hippocrates, Galen, Kant, Kretschmer, and now Keirsey, automatically the right choice? You aren't even questioning it. Why? All of your answers are based on past categorizations.
    For people whose preference is intuition, the action skills will not be determined by whether the perception is inward or outward. That is too "concrete", where they are abstract. So rather, it will be the judging function the perception is paired with that determines their action. Abstract Thinking will be more pragmatic and structure focused (the Choleric's aggressiveness and task focus), and abstract Feeling will be more cooperative and motive focused (the Phlegmatic's being a catalyst moving others to action, and people-focused).

    So this is why the symmetry is broken across S/N. Even though the cognitive processes may look like the best thing types can have in common, the temperaments, keep in mind, have the same core needs, and for those with a concrete preference, they are tied to the Sensing attitude, and for those with an abstract preference, it is just the presence of the same two functions, regardless of the attitude, that meet the need.

    Membership/belonging (in a structure) responsibility and duty: Si
    Freedom to act, make an impact: Se
    Mastery and Control/Knowledge and Competence: Ne+Ti or Ni+Te
    Meaning & significance/Unique identity: Ne+Fi or Ni+Fe.
    That's a nice theory, and it looks good on paper. The question, then, is why do NFJs find it so much harder to understand NFPs, and vice-versa, than STJs do SFJs, or SFPs do STPs? That so-called "core need" is approached so differently that I can't understand their way of seeing things at all. They may be pursuing something that seems kind of similar on ONE LEVEL that seems rather arbitrarily defined, but it's so different on other levels that they can hardly be compared. You've basically described the theory behind dividing the temperaments in that way, but you haven't shown why that theory is more justified. You act as if it doesn't need any justification because it's already established.

  7. #37
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    In another thread, you said function orders in type were true just because Jung said so and he just "knows." Why is Jung's perspective more valuable than anyone else's?
    It isn't.

    I was hoping someone would challenge it.

    You haven't yet learned that I never say exactly what I mean. Half the time, I actually say the OPPOSITE of what I mean.

  8. #38
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    It isn't.

    I was hoping someone would challenge it.
    So you like being found inconsistent?
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  9. #39
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So you like being found inconsistent?
    I don't like being held to the standard of consistency in the first place, honestly. At least not the kind you're talking about.

  10. #40
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I don't like being held to the standard of consistency in the first place, honestly.
    Good grief.
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