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  1. #31
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post

    I'd like to read whatever it was btw
    yea- me too.

  2. #32
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap View Post
    that's exactly it.
    kiersey had it all wrong. type has very little to do with communication style or behavior. kiersey insists that you can predict behavior based on type.
    No, you've got it backwards. Keirsey insists that certain behavior patterns can be labeled as a type, or an "intelligent role." "Predicted" behavior is then based on the already established pattern.

    Now if your point is that Keirsey's types don't line up perfectly with Jungian types, then you have a valid argument. And Dr. K himself has pretty much acknowledged this, as in his latest book, he doesn't even use MB letters anymore, except in the section on the history of type/temperament theory.
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  3. #33
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    No, you've got it backwards. Keirsey insists that certain behavior patterns can be labeled as a type, or an "intelligent role." "Predicted" behavior is then based on the already established pattern.
    either way, that's too limiting.

    that's the #1 problem most people take up with typology is that it's too limiting. too conrete.

    that's where these 'boxes' i always hear about come from -- necessarily tying type, in whatever direction you make the tie, to specific broad, or otherwise behavioral patterns.

    type can't work all the time if we do that.
    we fukin won boys

  4. #34
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I recall Geoff saying it was the most fundamental axis, and I think now that that may be actually true, though I disagreed at the time.

    It seems what drives most people's general attitude is whether the Judging function is directed inwardly or outwardly (which is what makes one a P or J, respectively.)

    Most people seem to be either outwardly organized and more negotiable on the inside, or vice versa. This has a ton of implications, which I'm sure we'll get to later.
    Yes.. it is a fundamental axis, as it totally changes how you interact with the world.

    It's the P or J that sets out whether you use a perceiving function (N/S) or a Judging function (T/F) to interact. So PvJ should feel very different to the end-user.

    Whether it's THE most fundamental axis depends how you try to use it. If you are talking about frames of reference, I'd say it was N/S but if you are looking at ways of experiencing and determing the world, it's P/J (again because of what it sets up on the adjacent two axis)

  5. #35
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think you're overstating the importance of the whole physical environment vs. inner ideas thing. That's not really the crux of S vs. N...S/N is really fundamentally just a difference in scope...
    actually i'm not -- stating what the user of a function can do better than one who doesn't use it as much doesn't do much.

    it's a fact: intuitors can bounce ideas off other ideas.
    it's a fact: sensors bring concrete objects to conscious thought more easily.

    I know an ISFJ guitarist who has near perfect pitch. He immediately knows whenever anything is off key because he hears a combination of notes and just gets in touch with the immediate essence of what C# is.
    you're dangerously close to tying something completely irrespective of type to type itself.

    This is a good point, but we disagree with the Sensors on the definition of "relevant."
    not exactly.
    it's not really a disagreement. i know what you're getting at but calling it a disagreement is the same kind of nonsense that got us on the slippery slope of cognitive dissonance in the first place.

    really the only difference are those things which come to consciousness. for Sensors, it's the concrete, for iNtuitors, it's the abstract between the concrete.

    surely as often as iNtuitors notice real things and ignore them, Sensors have some unhinged awareness of those connective tissues among the real things.

    confusion might settle in when we hear stories about these "aha" moments.
    a sudden revelation for an Sensor happens when they make conscious the abstract connections.
    we've all heard of the S_P 'going with his gut' or some other variant of that idea.
    for an iNtuitive, rather than discovering the connection in hindsight, the 'aha' moment comes when they finally remember to work that one detail that previously seemed so insignificant.

    you can see how this probably goes both ways.

    the rest...

    tldr.
    you typed Doyle as an E so don't discuss typology with me.

    and whatever little quip you made about recognizing weakness -- recognizing and confessing to people are very different processes.
    Last edited by Nocapszy; 06-24-2009 at 04:25 PM.
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  6. #36
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    P and J muddling

    i might have ivy merge these 'cause they kind of belong together.
    but i've had her merge a lot of shit so i'll probably make haight do it or something.
    we fukin won boys

  7. #37
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap View Post
    either way, that's too limiting.

    that's the #1 problem most people take up with typology is that it's too limiting. too conrete.

    that's where these 'boxes' i always hear about come from -- necessarily tying type, in whatever direction you make the tie, to specific broad, or otherwise behavioral patterns.

    type can't work all the time if we do that.

    Fair enough, but that doesn't mean Keirsey is wrong, it just means he doesn't cover stuff that you desire out of typology.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    I don't necessarily believe that Ns or Ss have an advantage. I've met more than one S who can think and theorize circles around me. The crux of my issue however, is this ...

    Intuitives are forced to live in the Sensor world simply by the virtue of having to work, eat, pay bills, use tools, etc. It is virtually impossible to live entirely in the Intuitive world. Therefore, Intuitives have some sensory experience by virtue of being exposed to it every day. My question is, how do you expose a Sensor to the Intuitive world? I do know some Sensors who live quite happily exclusively in their S world. There is no need for them to visit the N side as they are surviving just fine without it. How do you pull somebody into the N world? Is it even possible?
    Unfortunately, you cannot. They would not understand. We can use practice and drills to become better at S, but they ultimately, would not be able to understand N.

  9. #39
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Fair enough, but that doesn't mean Keirsey is wrong, it just means he doesn't cover stuff that you desire out of typology.
    actually it does mean keirsey is wrong, but i know how much you love him, so i'll just say he's right so you feel like you legitimately defended him.

    congratulations sir!
    we fukin won boys

  10. #40
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap View Post
    actually it does mean keirsey is wrong, but i know how much you love him, so i'll just say he's right so you feel like you legitimately defended him.

    congratulations sir!
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