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  1. #21
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Can we leave aside the PC strawman for this discussion? IMO it's a meaningless term. What you're classifying as PC, I see as fair. We are all flawed (in fact, our strengths ARE our flaws, and vice versa). When an N responds to another N who makes disparaging comments towards Ss with a criticism of Ns, it's basically a way of saying "well, your shit doesn't exactly smell like roses, buddy."
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Can we leave aside the PC strawman for this discussion? IMO it's a meaningless term. What you're classifying as PC, I see as fair. We are all flawed (in fact, our strengths ARE our flaws, and vice versa). When an N responds to another N who makes disparaging comments towards Ss with a criticism of Ns, it's basically a way of saying "well, your shit doesn't exactly smell like roses, buddy."
    What I mean by PC is issue avoidance, and/or marginalization of genuine feeling for the sake of some other agenda (call it being "fair", but "fair" is difficult to define).

    It is not a straw man, but the heart of the issue. Perhaps, there is some history, from INTPc, or Intuitive central, that I am unaware of, but this forum does wreak of "issue avoidance" (I won't use PC since you don't like that term).

    I think if we want this forum to yield discussion, we can't be afraid of issues, that have a potential of getting people riled up. We cannot go around sweeping peoples emotions under the rug (whether they are N or S).

    Let S's rant about N's and make things clear to the N's. We will learn a lot. Let N's do the same. Even experiences that are weird, or based on false assumptions are real.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #23
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What I mean by PC is issue avoidance, and/or marginalization of genuine feeling for the sake of some other agenda (call it being "fair", but "fair" is difficult to define).

    It is not a straw man, but the heart of the issue. Perhaps, there is some history, from INTPc, or Intuitive central, that I am unaware of, but this forum does wreak of "issue avoidance" (I won't use PC since you don't like that term).

    I think if we want this forum to yield discussion, we can't be afraid of issues, that have a potential of getting people riled up. We cannot go around sweeping peoples emotions under the rug (whether they are N or S).

    Let S's rant about N's and make things clear to the N's. We will learn a lot. Let N's do the same. Even experiences that are weird, or based on false assumptions are real.
    Hmm. I think you are missing some history, but perhaps this forum has gotten its sea legs now and we can leave that history behind. In the beginning we were very vigilant about keeping typism to a minimum, because we needed to attract a unique presence to the forum so it wouldn't just be INTPCentral Junior. We especially discouraged S-bashing, because we wanted this to be an all-types community and since it grew out of INTPCentral it was nearly all Ns. How would we get more sensors to post here if it looked like an intuitive treehouse with a NO SENSERS ALOWD YUCKY GROSS sign on the door? Disparaging comments about sensors did cause a few of our early recruits to jump ship, I think.

    Now, we're starting to get a good snowball going. You're right that we need to get a dialogue going- eventually. Maybe now's the time. Maybe not. I'm not sure, myself.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Can we leave aside the PC strawman for this discussion? IMO it's a meaningless term. What you're classifying as PC, I see as fair. We are all flawed (in fact, our strengths ARE our flaws, and vice versa). When an N responds to another N who makes disparaging comments towards Ss with a criticism of Ns, it's basically a way of saying "well, your shit doesn't exactly smell like roses, buddy."
    I agree.

    A couple months ago, I think the message board was pretty consistently disparaging about Sensors. It was very N-centered overall: Lots of Ns were patting themselves on the back about their ability to think circles around the poor dimwitted Sensors. Proteanmix complained that the prevailing atmosphere was going to make impossible to every attract Sensors as members. In my message that Santtu quoted, I agreed with Proteanmix that the board was obviously anti-Sensor. To put things a little more back in balance, I pointed out that the Sensor point of view has important things to offer the world too, and meanwhile iNtuition isn't necessarily the font of all wisdom as iNtuitives sometimes like to think.

    Today it's a couple months later, and a lot of the S-bashing has disappeared. We have some good active Sensor members, and they are making some really good contributions, posing some good questions, and opening themselves up for questions in return. In this more balanced atmosphere, my post may indeed read like a "self-beating N in motion" as Santtu labeled it. But that takes my post out of context. When I posted my message two months ago, the context was that Sensors were being excessively disparaged all over the message board. Re-read the quote from Proteanmix at the start of my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What I mean by PC is issue avoidance, and/or marginalization of genuine feeling for the sake of some other agenda (call it being "fair", but "fair" is difficult to define).

    It is not a straw man, but the heart of the issue. Perhaps, there is some history, from INTPc, or Intuitive central, that I am unaware of, but this forum does wreak of "issue avoidance" (I won't use PC since you don't like that term).
    I think you're missing the point. The point is that we were dealing with the issues. Two months ago, the issue was that Sensors were being excessively and thoughtlessly disparaged all over the message board. So some of us stepped up to the plate and tried to restore a little more balance.

    It doesn't mean that the issue is closed. Discussions about the differences between N and S seem inevitable and even natural on an MBTI-oriented board. But you're turning things on their head if you are implying that my post was about stifling discussion and avoiding issues. On the contrary. At the time it was part of an active flurry of discussions, and it was an attempt to address a sticky and troublesome issue head-on.

  5. #25
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    As usual, very well said, FineLine.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    As usual, very well said, FineLine.
    Thanks, Ivy.

    I'm outta here. Have a good week!

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I agree.

    A couple months ago, I think the message board was pretty consistently disparaging about Sensors. It was very N-centered overall: Lots of Ns were patting themselves on the back about their ability to think circles around the poor dimwitted Sensors. Proteanmix complained that the prevailing atmosphere was going to make impossible to every attract Sensors as members. In my message that Santtu quoted, I agreed with Proteanmix that the board was obviously anti-Sensor. To put things a little more back in balance, I pointed out that the Sensor point of view has important things to offer the world too, and meanwhile iNtuition isn't necessarily the font of all wisdom as iNtuitives sometimes like to think.

    Today it's a couple months later, and a lot of the S-bashing has disappeared. We have some good active Sensor members, and they are making some really good contributions, posing some good questions, and opening themselves up for questions in return. In this more balanced atmosphere, my post may indeed read like a "self-beating N in motion" as Santtu labeled it. But that takes my post out of context. When I posted my message two months ago, the context was that Sensors were being excessively disparaged all over the message board. Re-read the quote from Proteanmix at the start of my post.



    I think you're missing the point. The point is that we were dealing with the issues. Two months ago, the issue was that Sensors were being excessively and thoughtlessly disparaged all over the message board. So some of us stepped up to the plate and tried to restore a little more balance.

    It doesn't mean that the issue is closed. Discussions about the differences between N and S seem inevitable and even natural on an MBTI-oriented board. But you're turning things on their head if you are implying that my post was about stifling discussion and avoiding issues. On the contrary. At the time it was part of an active flurry of discussions, and it was an attempt to address a sticky and troublesome issue head-on.
    I guess I missed the context also. Just wanted to bring awareness, that while reading posts near it for context, posts like the ones Santtu brought up can seem very blaming. He was not the only one who read it the way he did, and his seems like an awfully natural interpretation. IMO that balancing a metaphorical pendulum, is not really the best way to deal with issues where one group is treated poorly (and looking back I can see that S types were indeed treated poorly on this forum).

    IMO, these types of pendulums tend to swing more and more violently, not come to a rest. We need to find different higher ground, not look for "common" ground, or try to "restore balance."

    Let's not make assumptions about what people believe or why people were motivated to do what they did. Speculations, yes. Assumptions are another animal.

    I think I may find many S's who agree with me on this point.

    Anyone?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #28
    Senior Member Shimpei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    S advocates on this board expect praise and recognition, yet fail to give any real credit to N side.
    PLEEEEEEEAAAASE. I feel the best when I'm with my N friends.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimpei View Post
    PLEEEEEEEAAAASE. I feel the best when I'm with my N friends.
    I have an old-roommate. Who I would type as ISFJ who would say the same thing. He has spent so long in the company of N's that he is actually used to that.

    Unfortunately, I think, he gets similar abuse to S's on this forum did. But, we love him. He is a truly loyal person.

    I also, have an ENTP (a guess) college buddy who gets guff for his N-ness among my old college friends who were mostly ISTs(again guesses).

    Getting past all the airing of past hurts, retaliations, "balance restoring" criticism....

    What do are the real weak-points of N's or S's?

    Are there such things? Is the identification of any such weakness, just a form of pigeonholing? Can we not will ourselves away from these weak points? and should we not use the criticism of others as fuel to improve?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I have missed much of this discussion, and y'all seem to be doing a good job of hashing out the issues...

    Just a few notes:

    - Anything in the "Three Reasons that XXX Suck" threads should be taken as tongue-in-cheek and/or not used in a serious debate of issues. Yes, a few people took those threads too seriously, but those threads were meant more like as, "Point out the foibles in lovable ways," not "Let's trash-talk someone's type." To avoid confusion, let us just quote from threads that we can all agree on the context of the posts.

    - There have been some references to past history here recently, so perhaps some of you have done some research and/or visited our sister site INTPc. All of our initial membership came from INTPc, and it was mostly an exodus of people looking for a safer/broader environment in which to post. So when newcomers here argue about "type bias," it sometimes catches us off-guard. (It is like people thrown in the drunk tank for the weekend complaining about the food to someone who survived five years in a concentration camp. Yes, maybe the food IS bad at times... but we are more appreciative of the positive aspects of the environment.)

    It does not mean there are not some biases and issues to work out. But context is very important. And the people who are here are actually the ones who are trying to do better and build a more cohesive forum where more types are represented.

    - It's a balance between feeling free to joke around and/or address potential conflict areas, versus feeling safe and as if one is appreciated for themselves. Everyone does have to give and take. Sometimes we'll offend each other by accident. It's just time to take a deep breath, remind ourselves while we are here, and then choose to continue to discuss. All of us can get touchy sometimes. That's just typical for a family or organization. The goal is to remember that everyone is on the same side (or that's the goal we need to focus on), then listen to other perspectives and try to accommodate others as best as we can, with the goal being what the best environment for the group is.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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