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  1. #11
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone here say that N theories are useless. Can you link me to any posts that say this?
    I just browsed thru so many posts that my head is aching.. mostly of N's beated into thinking they're inferior. Few S have made strong arguments against the N-type theorizing while appearing as S themselves, so data on that is kind of thin.

    Ss beating Ns and Ns beating themselves..
    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Intuitives are isolated from reality but don't see it as an unhealthy way of life.
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    1) For every good theory that NTs seem to come up with, you have to wade through hundreds of crack brains ideas and concepts.
    On INTs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimpei View Post
    1. over-theorizing and over-analysing instead of making decisions and act upon them
    2. basically no or little practicality
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    ..a perfect example of how Ns are inferior to Ss. Over application of dreamy systems that drift away from the fundamental theories and applications.
    Views about Ns by Ss outside these boards:
    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    My MIL's answer to being introduced to the idea of N verses S was to ask "So what can they do to fix these N types?"
    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Recommended anti-N reading
    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Here's real insight to the dynamics of this war. What are the root causes?
    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    S types most often complain about how N types act and think and tell them their way is wrong and that they need to change.

    N types most often on these boards complain about S types complaining about them and the S types attempting to be controlling in this way and the S types lack of interest in trying to understand the N type.

    Yet when the N types do that, they are told they are being too much like the things they don't like about S types. So N types must accept without complaint the complaints that S types send their way or else they are just as bad?

    I think that N types express a great desire to understand the S types and these boards are full of that if one actually wants to see that side of things insead of just focusing on the frustrations and vents. Speaking for myself however, I admit that I get mighty weary of always in my offline life being the one who makes allowances for S types and trying to understand their POV. It seems like it is that way. The ones I know have zero desire to make allowances for my POV, to them when I show my real self I am most often just a silly dreamer who has a warped view on things.

    I admit I have some really extreme cookie cutter versions of S in my life and it is unfortunate for me that I am way over on the N scale, which in my deepest mind I do see as a sort of disadvantage in dealing with other people and I am working on trying to develop my S traits more fully.
    Self-beating N in motion
    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Meantime, I also keep in mind that (in my experience) Ss tend to have a lot of disdain for ditzy, schizy, whiny, N dilettantes. From the Sensor point of view, Ss are the sober, experienced adults, while Ns are the idealistic starry-eyed teenagers of the world.
    What hope of improvement we can maintain
    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    On the positive side, some Ss continue to post over here, perhaps to broaden their own horizons and learn about Ns, and perhaps to remind Ns that a real world exists out there and recount some first-hand experience to help Ns bring their theories back down to earth and anchor them in reality. And in the meantime by participating on a mixed-type message board Ns presumably indicate that they are open to opposing views, at least in theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    If the quantity of Ss ever reaches critical mass, we'll probably see more name-calling rather than less. As I said above, in my experience Ss tend to have a lot of disdain for ditzy, schizy, whiny N dilettantes. It doesn't always come out as irritation; sometimes Ss feel positively paternal and protective toward the loopy, occasionally-brilliant, occasionally-vulnerable Ns. But inevitably there is going to be irritation and defensiveness, and frictions on the message board are going to lead to abuse of stereotypes and some fireworks at times.

    Hopefully in the long run everyone can remember that this is a mixed-type message board, understand that the traditional stereotypes aren't going to disappear anytime soon, not get too worked up when the stereotypes are abused, and remember to stay open to other viewpoints.
    Life is hell..

  2. #12
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Santtu you're funny.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #13
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    AYFKM?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #14
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    AYFKM?
    Yes and no.

    Is there anything else how I may be of assistance?

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    <Lots of links to sources of his sentiment on this forum>
    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Santtu you're funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    AYFKM?
    This type of reaction irks me. God knows how long Santtu spent digging up those links.

    And he gets, "You're funny", and "Are you f***ing kidding me"?

    He obviously had real grievances, with real feelings behind them (some of which I share).

    Marginalization and ignorance of input can often be worse than direct insults.

    Why can't we simply level with each other, and share our grievances instead of avoiding them or insulting each other?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #16
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Sorry, ygolo, I guess I just got something completely different out of all the snippets he found, and I really can't figure how he got what he got. They were completely without context, but I read them all the first time so I remembered the context for most of them, and for the most part they were not anti-N sentiments in context. I find myself wondering if we're reading the same forum.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #17
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Sorry, ygolo, I guess I just got something completely different out of all the snippets he found, and I really can't figure how he got what he got. They were completely without context, but I read them all the first time so I remembered the context for most of them, and for the most part they were not anti-N sentiments in context. I find myself wondering if we're reading the same forum.
    *shrug* They are all linked, one can get the context.

    My first quote is from a thread complaining about biases against Ss. The second is from the "Name 3 things that suck about INTs".

    Far as I can tell, 90% of the quotes are from only those two threads... that's completely out of context IMO.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Sorry, ygolo, I guess I just got something completely different out of all the snippets he found, and I really can't figure how he got what he got. They were completely without context, but I read them all the first time so I remembered the context for most of them, and for the most part they were not anti-N sentiments in context. I find myself wondering if we're reading the same forum.
    I do find it hard to believe that this forum is anti-iNtuitive in general. I suppose he (and I) was projecting based on Real Life experience.

    EDIT: I went back and reviewed the context, and I can see what he was getting at still. Granted I haven't been on this forum that long, and only know some of the context. But it seems to me, that there is some Political Correctness style motivations behind many of the posts. I don't encourage or condone MBTI-type based stereotypes, but there is a heavy-handed avoidance of issues going on for sure.
    Last edited by ygolo; 09-16-2007 at 10:55 PM. Reason: after reading some context

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #19
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I do find it hard to believe that this forum is anti-iNtuitive in general. I suppose he (and I) was projecting based on Real Life experience.
    That's fine. I've experienced both forms of discrimination in 3D, having been pigeonholed as both a dull non-artist who Just Doesn't Understand AND a head-in-the-clouds dreamer with a faulty connection to the real world. This is the peril of being fairly balanced on the N/S axis, I suppose. But Santtu very specifically singled out THIS FORUM for his criticisms, and he didn't hold back. Then we come to find out that what he was reacting to was mostly either tongue-in-cheek or an effort to recalibrate the pendulum to accomodate sensors in an intuitive-dominated environment. I stand by what I said at first, that I don't believe I've ever seen a sincere, unmitigated attack on intuitives here. I've seen several sincere, unmitigated attacks on sensors, though.

    Maybe there's a language barrier? Or maybe it's some kind of ineffable forum nuance that it takes awhile to become fluent in, so at first it looks like N-bashing? I don't know.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Maybe there's a language barrier? Or maybe it's some kind of ineffable forum nuance that it takes awhile to become fluent in, so at first it looks like N-bashing? I don't know.
    Maybe. Reading it, I get this pattern.

    1. N complains about S based on personal experiences (perhaps generalizes to all S's, but often it is just interpreted that way).
    2a. Rare occurrence. S responds about general poor characteristics of N and aims it at the specific N.
    2b. More common. Ns in PC manner aims weird attacks at specific N. (A similar thing also seems to happen to Sona, who is self-typed as an S for other things)

    Certainly, the excerpts were selected to illustrate this pattern, and there may be others (The blatant anti-S post put forth to start this thread for example). But that is honestly the way I have read some of the posts.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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