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  1. #21
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    Well, for instance, during the months of May and June, I have Mother's Day, my mother's birthday, Father's day and my parents' anniversary. When I first realized it, I thought, that's a lot of fucking holidays for 2 people. Why do I have to spend money on something they'll forget in a few months? Maybe I can get a much smaller amount of presents to cover each holiday. I can be strategic about it. One gift to cover the sentiment of multiple holidays. Why do they need these holidays? I can understand the birthday and anniversary, but mother's and father's day? Don't they feel appreciated throughout the year? What's the point of the holiday? If I do too much, it might feel fake and isolated. I'll just get a card.
    Precisely. Just last Mother's day, I was obligated to write 5 personal letters, each for an aunt or grandmother. (Why on earth is one card per person, per year not enough? :steam My ESTP brother and I both gave each other looks, but we knew we would be going through some nagging hell if those cards aren't finished. As tedious as it was to start, we ended up racing against each other for the best (not longest) letter in the shortest amount of time. Writing holiday cards then became surprisingly enjoyable because we incorporated our natural competitive drive into the activity. Sometimes I opted for home-made gifts when I'm at my card limits. Nobody complained.

    When we visit relatives, they often require us to fulfill the hosting role without being directly asked. The point was to 'appear' like caring, responsible and good-natured young adults, whatever that means. My mother boasts of how wonderful her friend's children are: they inquire about their parents' well-being and immediately look after others' needs on their own. However, this idea is about as understandable to me as philosophy is to a chimpanzee. If you need help... then how about asking for it? Of course, you can't because it'd take the meaning out of the act. We ultimately have two choices: to follow through or don't. The repercussions for listening is considerably less, so I began viewing hosting as type of inexpensive payment for my stay at their place. I started by focusing on what I could manage and pinpointing the tasks where my relatives preferred additional assistance. To spice things up, my STP cousins and I made a competition out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    But, like, for instance, an ISFJ at work came up to me to buy something on her lunch break. We had these preorder forms for customers and she was doing one of them for herself. So, I gave her the form and a pen. She asked me why I didn't fill out the form for the customers. I told her right there, "I don't know the customer's personal information." She said she just does it anyway. I thought, I'd likely have to get their driver's license and credit card, then write it all down myself, probably taking more time. It'd be more efficient for them to do it. I didn't tell her that, but I was just trying to understand her point of view. It wasn't required to do it, but it was something she did just to be nice.
    I'd probably question her reasons. It sounds like a kind gesture, but is it necessary? Would they appreciate it? Unless you're working with the physically handicapped or the dyslexic, I'm not sure why this needs to be done. I would ask if there was any other effective way of assisting customers. The best choices should benefit both parties.

    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    This thread started because an INFJ at work was talking to me before we left. It wasn't a work related concern but more of a personal concern apparently. During our conversation she told me, "You're mean. Why are you mean? Let's talk about that." So, she went on to ask that ISFJ if she thought I was mean and she agreed. I told her about a girl earlier I talked to that said I was mean and feisty after 5 minutes of talking to me. She said not everyone can take everything I want to say, and I shouldn't expect everyone to not take anything personally. She said it was better to be nice and have friends than to expect others to have a thick skin and not have anyone to talk to. So, it made me start thinking about this.
    Even though I'm not in your situation, "let's talk about that" already sounds like a code expression for the arsehole blame game. There's too much manipulation, one-sided lecturing and not enough problem-solving. A friendship where honesty has to be compromised sounds like a relationship not worth keeping at all, IMO. To whom you are tricking into thinking that you're someone other than yourself? You mainly aim for the truth, regardless of how pleasant it may or may not be. Being mean doesn't sound like your priority. It just happens.

    I'd take into account the people, the environment and the results I am dealing with. For someone more thin-skinned, I'd follow the advice I mentioned in the initial post. And given I might work with customers who share her nature, I'll ask exactly why I sound offensive. What should I say instead? What if the person needs to hear the truth? There must be a happy medium for anyone to proceed further. Try to openly talk this out and see what you both agree on. Otherwise, misery is guaranteed. I'd personally like to have a clear utility purpose behind the etiquette. Everything will be easier once I've figured out a way that will motivate me to do the said behavior. Negative reinforcement can drastically drain away energy. Then you're out of fuel for sure.

    For an example:

    - By the end of the month, you must finish this entire pile of paperwork or else you will not receive a vacation break.

    + Or... if you finish this little stack of files each day, you'll do enough to complete the entire pile and be rewarded with a vacation.

    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    The feeling like my worth has been lowered is the weird response. Is that Fi? I just didn't expect myself to think that the ability to relate and appreciate others in a less than logical manner would become something that would add to my worth as a human being.
    I wouldn't use it to bait myself into being nice. Again, this will backfire. It's better to choose reasonable and approachable Fi values that coincide with the conclusions of the Fe values. Different methods, same results. Hey, who could argue?
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  2. #22
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    I'm just trying to understand how people get their feelings hurt or get offended. How does that work? I tried emulating scenarios in Vent with Kai and Cimarron, and I just felt frustration toward other people. I get my sense of pride hurt. Does that count?


  3. #23
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    I'm just trying to understand how people get their feelings hurt or get offended. How does that work? I tried emulating scenarios in Vent with Kai and Cimarron, and I just felt frustration toward other people. I get my sense of pride hurt. Does that count?
    Ah, that's what you meant.

    *Brushes the dusty Fe & Ne functions off the shelf*

    You're right on the mark with the sense of pride. Because they are Fe users, they are generally more connected the emotional harmony or disharmony around them. Having an interpersonal acceptance is their high priority and it may cause them to take criticism, blunt honesty, etc. as a devaluation of their worth as a human being, even if those words were never meant to be delivered as it is comprehended.

    If your Fi is sensitive to these minute details, then it would be a good tool to use when trying to understand how this upsets them. Thinking about a time when you felt your pride was bruised, as stated, gives some insight to their frustration. We all have areas where we desire acceptance and dread commendation. Nevertheless, people get hurt in millions of ways and the right trigger buttons are only relevant to the environment/individuals you're dealing with. Fi may not be as reliable than Fe since we may have more immunity to attacks than the next person over.

    One way of being nice is to show them appreciation in their language when you can. They'll feel more connected to you (remember, they're vigilant about their place within a group) and it will be less of hassle to 'speak the same language'. Should you offer criticism, begin on what's working well, then move on to the areas of improvement by asking the right questions. Let them think of their own solutions. (Another bonus point when they see their worth going up. Since they're service-oriented people, this is where they get the most satisfaction.) They'll be excited to do it.

    For an example, say to the ISFJ @ the work place, "It is very considerate of you to put other's needs before your own. (I'd bet I'll hear squeeing of sheer joy. And think of how she's approaching the issue, not yourself. She wants to hear approval for her effort. I don't see things this way either, but my opinion matters little to her world.) What if we think of another way that will help our customers further? If it takes us less time to do it, then we'll be able to aid more people. Expect a greater number of happier customers and quality service." So there you go. It should work for you and her.

    When there's a mistake involving her only, then do not isolate her (which will embarrass her standing reputation) whatsoever. Try to give the impression that it is common, fixable & forgettable mistake and a little push is all one needs. Again, this keeps them attached to the group. Make them feel like their effort is valued and guide them to switching to a more effective method that includes their motivations and skills. (Te it, baby. We can't change everyone, but we can change how we respond to them. Sometimes we have to work with what we've got.) Emphasize their help is needed and not a burden! Be sincere. They don't want to know their recognition is based on faulty information.

    Example: Let's say she's being a complete slob. To address this, you should start, "You have done an excellent job on X and with this same effort you'll do just as well on Y. You're a very capable person in <name of area that they're good at>. If you need any help, just ask." (If this sounds like arse-kissing, remember it's keeping the unity between one another. You can't get someone who has nothing to give to do something. They'll feel their contribution isn't worth it, so why bother? Then you might become annoyed, criticize them again and they'll continue drifting away. Instead, give them an honorable, reasonable standard to live up to. + 1 pt. for human acceptance/worth. Think of it as turning a piece of coal into a diamond.)

    Another example: "You're an organized, determined student. You know exactly what to do to get this situation in shape and give the results that reflects your high capability. I , myself, have been in a similar circumstance and I can offer additional tutoring whenever you'd like."

    This post has a lot of repetition, but I was trying to break the ideas down as much as I could. I hope it offers some perspective. It's all about using the best words and phrases. Living with my family is like attending a (SFJ) boot camp without the trainers or instructions. You're bound to step on egos every now and then, and you simply have to sense your way out of it by testing the waters, making mistakes as you go. If you don't get something (which is the inevitable), peacefully ask the other person to help you understand. Stay open to their position.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  4. #24
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    I guess the proper course of action is to get in touch with my empathy rather than trying to fake sympathy.


  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    I guess the proper course of action is to get in touch with my empathy rather than trying to fake sympathy.
    Do this exactly. It'll give you more than you were originally wanting; you'll understand yourself, too.

    You'll also be hacking away at the root of the problem, rather than pruning the leaves and calling the tree dead.

  6. #26
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Now to find ways for ISTJs to work on Fi. Any suggestions?


  7. #27
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    Now to find ways for ISTJs to work on Fi. Any suggestions?
    You can probably start now by playing guess-the-feelings-of-other-TypeC-users game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenore Thompson
    To experience Introverted Feeling:

    As you come across the action of any mammal engaged in any activity (including humans), say to yourself, "He/she is feeling ______ because he is needing ______" and fill in the blanks. Guess the mammal's emotion as accurately as you can, by paying close attention to every detail of its behavior and trying to imagine what emotion that you might feel if you were that kind of mammal and acting that way. Guess the need by intuiting the inner calling of the animal that is emerging in the way it's responding to its environment, by recalling a similar need of your own. For example, if you see a Scotty dog sniffing around at a new suitcase, you might guess, "He is feeling apprehensive because he has a need to know he's safe." Or you might guess, "He is feeling curious because he has a need to learn all about the world around him." It depends unpredictably on exactly what you really observe. Key is to watch the mammal extremely closely, so your guess emerges spontaneously from empathizing, and not, say, by consciously reasoning on the basis of something you've read. Your guess must come from the fact that you yourself genuinely feel it. It must come from the heart.

    Try the same exercise on yourself at odd moments: self-empathy. Simply monitor how much you like or dislike something, and what in your nature is being fulfilled or frustrated to cause that feeling of like or dislike. Note that attending to your emotion alone is not enough; you must trace the emotion back to a need that is being fulfilled or frustrated. However, if you're having trouble with this, you might try just consciously noting your emotion for a while, as a starter exercise.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
    SLOAN: rCoa|I|
    Functional Preferences: Ni, Te/Fi, Ti, Se, Fe, Si, Ne


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  8. #28
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    ^^Is that really people's experience of Fi? Those of you "proficient" in it: is that how it works for you?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #29
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    At least for myself, particularly regarding the last part.

    Not certain about the others here. The FPs should offer a sound answer.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
    SLOAN: rCoa|I|
    Functional Preferences: Ni, Te/Fi, Ti, Se, Fe, Si, Ne


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Fi sounds good to me. This part doesn't really click with me so much because I don't usually empathise without having experienced it myself, or consciously placing myself in another persons shoe.

    so your guess emerges spontaneously from empathizing, and not, say, by consciously reasoning on the basis of something you've read.

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