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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    How often it happens to you that just because you are determined and punctual people tend to think that you are one of those down to Earth people ?
    All the time. People seem to think I'm the salt of the earth.

  2. #12
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Interesting idea. It's certainly possible, but I would expect that there are many FJs who have adopted the idea that it's best to withold judgement from the external environment and to just comment on what they perceive, the latter being less judgemental in nature.

    This is of course assuming that I haven't used judgement/perception out of context.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    This does seem to correlate with my experience sometime that Fi dominants can become quite attached to their belief system, where as I've seen Fe users take on a more moral relativity approach when it comes to debating about ethics. Granted it's a limited sample, and therefore could be wrong.
    Yes, those are called introverts. Think of each introverted type as performing the same functions as its extroverted counterpart, just giving more priority to the introverted function.

    Take ENTP for instance--the theory says we have dominant Ne and auxiliary Ti. Ne has the most influence on our dealings with the outer world, so we're scattered and restless and frequently disorganized externally, but then Ti takes those patterns from outside and organizes them into systematic criteria by which future patterns may be judged.

    We are Perceivers because we extrovert our Perceiving function, Ne, not because we are dominant in a Perceiving function.

    The important distinction here is that P/J is determined not by whether your Perceiving or Judging function is dominant, but by which of your top two functions (S/N or T/F) is extroverted.

    Just follow these easy steps:

    1) Your middle two letters tell you which two functions you use best. One will be a Perceiving function (S/N), which gathers information, and one a Judging function (T/F), which makes decisions based on that information.

    2) According to the theory, one of these two functions will be introverted, and the other extroverted. The P/J tells us which of the two primary functions is the extroverted one, because that function is responsible for most dealings with the external world and environment. The outer world doesn't really witness the processes of introverted functions; they are linked inextricably to personal perspective.

    3) Now the I/E tells you which of the two functions you give most priority to.

    Example:

    1) Say I'm an ISFP (if only!) So my best two functions will be Sensing and Feeling.

    2) The P indicates that my Perceiving function is extroverted, in this case, Sensing. So we know that one of my top two functions is Se.

    3) By process of elimination, since one of these two functions must be extroverted and the other introverted, my other primary function must be Fi. So from a functional theory perspective, SFP = Se+Fi user. (Sensing-Feeler who extroverts his Perception and introverts his Judgment.)

    4) Finally, the I tells us that from Se and Fi, the Introverted function is the one that will get highest priority, on average. Now we have Fi+Se...ISFP = Sensing-Feeler who extroverts his Perceiving function (Se) and introverts his Judging function (Fi), but gives more priority to the introverted one...which is largely unseen and unheard by others. This explains the introvert's apparent social withdrawal and desire for alone time.


    The theory goes that FJs who withhold their feeling judgments, as you mentioned, are probably IFJs. They're still Js because they extrovert judgment and introvert perception; in the case of IFJs, they just happen to use that introverted Perception (dominant Si/Ni) more often than its extroverted Judgment counterpart (Fe), and thus appear much more reserved.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #13
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    I'm sitting here laughing that Mr. "Big picture" typed out all those details in sequential order.
    Lol.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Take ENTP for instance--the theory says we have dominant Ne and auxiliary Ti. Ne has the most influence on our dealings with the outer world, so we're scattered and restless and frequently disorganized externally, but then Ti takes those patterns from outside and organizes them into systematic criteria by which future patterns may be judged.

    We are Perceivers because we extrovert our Perceiving function, Ne, not because we are dominant in a Perceiving function.

    The important distinction here is that P/J is determined not by whether your Perceiving or Judging function is dominant, but by which of your top two functions (S/N or T/F) is extroverted.

    Just follow these easy steps:

    1) Your middle two letters tell you which two functions you use best. One will be a Perceiving function (S/N), which gathers information, and one a Judging function (T/F), which makes decisions based on that information.

    2) According to the theory, one of these two functions will be introverted, and the other extroverted. The P/J tells us which of the two primary functions is the extroverted one, because that function is responsible for most dealings with the external world and environment. The outer world doesn't really witness the processes of introverted functions; they are linked inextricably to personal perspective.

    3) Now the I/E tells you which of the two functions you give most priority to.

    Example:

    1) Say I'm an ISFP (if only!) So my best two functions will be Sensing and Feeling.

    2) The P indicates that my Perceiving function is extroverted, in this case, Sensing. So we know that one of my top two functions is Se.

    3) By process of elimination, since one of these two functions must be extroverted and the other introverted, my other primary function must be Fi. So from a functional theory perspective, SFP = Se+Fi user. (Sensing-Feeler who extroverts his Perception and introverts his Judgment.)

    4) Finally, the I tells us that from Se and Fi, the Introverted function is the one that will get highest priority, on average. Now we have Fi+Se...ISFP = Sensing-Feeler who extroverts his Perceiving function (Se) and introverts his Judging function (Fi), but gives more priority to the introverted one.
    Thanks for the explanation.

    Yes, those are called introverts. Think of each introverted type as performing the same functions as its extroverted counterpart, just giving more priority to the introverted function.

    The theory goes that FJs who withhold their feeling judgments, as you mentioned, are probably IFJs. They're still Js because they extrovert judgment and introvert perception; in the case of IFJs, they just happen to use dominant Si/Ni more often.
    I was thinking along the lines of basic psychology. The counsellor who would hide away their judgement because it causes conflicts with the patient. So while it's true that a FJ may have Je, because it's Fe it'll causes them to hide away it (At least seemingly true for IFJs) in order to increase harmony.

    It's probably a bad idea to mix the terminology... MBTI meaning of judgement, and judgement in the common day sense.

  5. #15
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I think that in general differences are

    SJ= plans, structure, order, rules
    NJ= the end justifies the means + determination
    ?? why is that just an NJ thing? And NJ's use plans too.

  6. #16
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    For all their external organization, NJs actually aren't nearly as organized internally as their appearance would indicate. Unlike NPs, Je+Pi doesn't really care about internal logical consistency so much as being able to make objectively verifiable progress toward a measurable external goal--hence the J focus on productivity. This is a function of the fact all Js introvert the perceptive function and extrovert the judging one.

    NPs (Pe+Ji) give off a much more disorganized outward appearance, but in reality their inner logic by which external stimuli are judged is extremely consistent and demands structural integrity from any idea seeking to gain true credibility.

    This probably explains why NPs will argue anything to death just to look at all the angles and prove logical consistency/lack thereof--Ji *needs* the assurance that all of its positions are rationally consistent.

    NJs don't bother with this: Ni+Je asks, "Why do I need logical consistency if it doesn't get me toward any measurable external goal? What do I gain from arguing this with you?"

    You know, maybe they're onto something...
    i agree with the way you have set up this explanation of p vs j. lenore symbolizes this with right brained vs left brained, perceiving multiple objects simultaneously vs perceiving the relationship between part and whole, always grasping objects by the sense of the whole.

    dominant Ni and dominant Si feel like knowing with finality is a silly conjecture. understanding the patterns/nature of reality as anything but flux and more flux does not coincide with our inner experience of the world. for njs in particular everything external is a representation that can be turned again and again w/o limit (whereas for sjs there is always another empirical trial, always another fact, always changing unfixable data). the idea of finding a static Truthy way of capturing that is silly to us. why all the mature healthy infjs are all zenned and yoga'd out and seem to speak in riddles. we don't feel like fucking qualifying everything we say more times than judith butler. the idea of pinpointing anything is absurd, and at best, sometimes i'll just try to trap the meaning of what i think i intend to express in a little artificial corner of words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I'm sitting here laughing that Mr. "Big picture" typed out all those details in sequential order.
    Lol.

  7. #17
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    ?? why is that just an NJ thing? And NJ's use plans too.
    In the case I am sure about the answer I probably wouldn't open the topic.

    Yes, NJs use plans but I am not sure to what degree this is actually true.
    The thing is that I am very good at figuring possible outcomes and this comes completly natural to me. Which means that I know exactly where I was and where I can get and how likely is some outcome.


    So I don't make real plans most of the time. I am simply going in a direction I want to. But if variables change I can change my entire approach/goals.
    And I don't feel uncomfortable doing that. When it comes to big picture changes are minimal or small. But on a mirco scale I can be very hard to define/predict. Because I don't stick to things, what drives sensors (especially SJs) insane because they can't figure out the principles by which I am working. But I don't give a vibe of sponatneous and reckless person either.


    I am very punctual and I don't lose things (in general) but I never make list of what to do. Because just a 5 minutes later the entire thing/list could be obsolete.
    This is why I said we don't make plans since our planning is not concrete/linear in many cases.


    Why I have said "The end justifies the means" ?.
    Becuse it looks to me that NJs are far more likely to disobey/ignore rules then SJs. As far as I know in almost every INTJ type description you have a statement that we pay little attention to hierarchy unless that is really needed.


    From outside I can look like very structured but this is just a sidefect of my determination, controling nature or my calmness but on the inside I am anything but clear and structured.
    When you get in a deeper/complex conversation with me this becomes more obvious.
    Which is mostly because I can't verbalize my thoughts fast as they are comming. Or create links fast enough for others to see.


    I happens to me that people are pleased with my planning skills.
    But on the inside I am wondering "Did I really did that planning?". Since most parts just came out of nowhere. Unless it is something more complex where you will have to use Te or Ti.

    Can any other NJ relate to this ?

  8. #18
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    In the case I am sure about the answer I probably wouldn't open the topic.

    Yes, NJs use plans but I am not sure to what degree this is actually true.
    The thing is that I am very good at figuring possible outcomes and this comes completly natural to me. Which means that I know exactly where I was and where I can get and how likely is some outcome.


    So I don't make real plans most of the time. I am simply going in a direction I want to. But if variables change I can change my entire approach/goals.
    And I don't feel uncomfortable doing that. When it comes to big picture changes are minimal or small. But on a mirco scale I can be very hard to define/predict. Because I don't stick to things, what drives sensors (especially SJs) insane because they can't figure out the principles by which I am working. But I don't give a vibe of sponatneous and reckless person either.


    I am very punctual and I don't lose things (in general) but I never make list of what to do. Because just a 5 minutes later the entire thing/list could be obsolete.
    This is why I said we don't make plans since our planning is not concrete/linear in many cases.


    Why I have said "The end justifies the means" ?.
    Becuse it looks to me that NJs are far more likely to disobey/ignore rules then SJs. As far as I know in almost every INTJ type description you have a statement that we pay little attention to hierarchy unless that is really needed.


    From outside I can look like very structured but this is just a sidefect of my determination, controling nature or my calmness but on the inside I am anything but clear and structured.
    When you get in a deeper/complex conversation with me this becomes more obvious.
    Which is mostly because I can't verbalize my thoughts fast as they are comming. Or create links fast enough for others to see.


    I happens to me that people are pleased with my planning skills.
    But on the inside I am wondering "Did I really did that planning?". Since most parts just came out of nowhere. Unless it is something more complex where you will have to use Te or Ti.

    Can other NJs relate to this ?

    Yes. I definitely relate to what you're saying. I make plans, but more often than not, I make them with the full understanding that I will probably throw them out the window in under an hour. The only real reason I make something like a "To Do" list or plan is not to follow it, but to point myself in the right direction. That is often difficult to do when I am mired in a cloud of details. Once all those details are written down, they're externally organized, they're out of my way, they're no longer mentally bogging me down and confusing me, and I am free to persue the overall goal of the list/plan (which may be something like "Get x number of these things done today." I will probably not do them in order, but I will probably meet that goal fairly closely).
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

    Robert Frost

  9. #19
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    ^^Interesting explanations from both Antisocial One and Kyrielle. I guess that pretty much sums it up as to the differences between SJs and NJs.

    I know I don't make To-Do Lists to have broad ideas of what I'm going to do, but to actually get each thing on my list done. If I don't get something done, well then I'll try again another time.

    As for respecting authority, it really depends. If my performance is going to be evaluated based on them and if they're in any way important in professional evaluations, then I show respect to them.

    However, I have a lot of determination and I'm also a big fan of "end justifies means" in this sense: In the end, what matters is what you get done. The process in which you get it done doesn't matter as much.

  10. #20
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    the idea of introverted sensing is explained on another site as being detail oriented, at having a more localized like matrix of perceptions and working those out. very left-brained. whereas right brained is much more big picture, kinda just getting the flow, going by feel, etc.

    i think Te is always step by step, kind of adjusting. the big difference is taht for Si the facts change less often, the perspective is not jumping around as much, the interior picture is much more stable and made up of discrete objects whereas for Ni the motion is what we see, the kind of energetic vector direction. Ni is always just getting a glimpse as the revolving door of ideas keeps flowing on by. it's a process of integrating very specific details as they come and just re-arranging them until they are perfect, Te takes a bit more time to draw linear connections than Fe but then it doesn't need to check its work, and the past is a more stable platform for the future.

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