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  1. #31
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Is the personality irrespective of type?
    Give me the clue.
    ~Slight derailment dear boy but we should indulge (I like the side quests )

    Type - This is a representation of your cognitive wiring (to use my father's analogy). It represents how your brain is wired up. I always saw this as each brain having the same wiring but there being less resistance and voltage drop over certain wires from birth and hence some favoured kinds of thinking appear. Of course the other wires can be upgraded or you can grin and bear the strain of using them every once in a while but that's never the route of least resistance.

    Personality itself is too complex to be expressed in such simple terms as sixteen types with any accuracy at all and that's not really what the MBTI is about, though it often masquerades as such. Basically with the MBTI you observe the personality and, with the type, can decipher some of the more inobvious parts of that persons psyche.

    For example what is the personality of an INTP?
    I certainly don't have it and neither do you. What is this personality? We can certainly say what some of the features should be but only in terms of how thinks are processed and not what is included within that process nor can we say with any certainty what result the process will produce.

    For example take intuitives. They link what they are thinking about to a resource of previous experiences and seemingly matching patterns. Well there's nothing about what they are linking to in specific and no note made about what result you would get (for one any attempt would produce a library of possibilities), as such how can it describe the personality of that person?

    To put it in your words, is a leaf a tree? No a leaf is part of a tree but the tree is much, much more than it's leaves.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #32
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    ~Slight derailment dear boy but we should indulge (I like the side quests )

    Type - This is a representation of your cognitive wiring (to use my father's analogy). It represents how your brain is wired up. I always saw this as each brain having the same wiring but there being less resistance and voltage drop over certain wires from birth and hence some favoured kinds of thinking appear. Of course the other wires can be upgraded or you can grin and bear the strain of using them every once in a while but that's never the route of least resistance.

    Personality itself is too complex to be expressed in such simple terms as sixteen types with any accuracy at all and that's not really what the MBTI is about, though it often masquerades as such. Basically with the MBTI you observe the personality and, with the type, can decipher some of the more inobvious parts of that persons psyche.

    For example what is the personality of an INTP?
    I certainly don't have it and neither do you. What is this personality? We can certainly say what some of the features should be but only in terms of how thinks are processed and not what is included within that process nor can we say with any certainty what result the process will produce.

    For example take intuitives. They link what they are thinking about to a resource of previous experiences and seemingly matching patterns. Well there's nothing about what they are linking to in specific and no note made about what result you would get (for one any attempt would produce a library of possibilities), as such how can it describe the personality of that person?

    To put it in your words, is a leaf a tree? No a leaf is part of a tree but the tree is much, much more than it's leaves.
    The ESTJ has always seemed like an entire tree to me.
    Especially the bad ESTJ you describe so well.

    The ESTJ (I am talking about the baddie) has a key role in the company. Always and inevitably. No one has given him/her the key role. She has assumed it.

    This chap I worked with was an ESTJ engineer. A quiet chap. He had assumed the key roll.
    I did not have a lodging in the town when I started working in the company. I had to live in a hotel, or otherwise I had to travel more than a hundred miles every day to get home.
    I said I need an apartment or something. He said no problem. That was about all he ever said.
    The same day he gave the keys. I moved in.

    The problem was he had the other key. When he (uninvited) came he did not ring the doorbell. He used the key. He walked around the apartment. He inspected every closet. He opened every drawer. He opened the fridge (what did he think I could possibly have in there?). He never said a word.
    He came every day. He never forgot to open the fridge. He never spoke.
    He came in also when I was not at home.

    Why did he come? We were not friends. We worked in the same project but our work was so different we did not need to engage socially because of it.

    Sometimes we were obliged to take a long trip together. Hundreds of miles he drove and never said a word. A quiet chap.
    The keyman.

    What representation of cognitive wiring is that? It is called the Passive-Aggressive Personality Type.

    Aggressive.

    attacking
    assaulting
    assailing
    invading
    offensive
    pushing
    self assertive

    Aggression

    hostile encroachement
    provocation
    offense

    Passive

    quiet (!)
    quiescent
    stoical
    enduring
    apathetic

    When he was in my company he was particularly apathetic. I cannot find a better word to describe the keyman.

    I once read a personality type description of the apathetic person. It curiously reminded me of everything I had read or what I knew about the ESTJ type.

    Of course some of them are simply too much openly aggressive and too energetic to be labelled the apathetic type. And some of them a phlegmatic.

    But there is a continuum here. It is said the apathetic type and the phlegmatic type is the best soldier. The ESTJs make the best soldiers.

    Some of the INTPs may seem phlegmatic or even apathetic. Drowsy fellows, eh?
    I think the phlegmacy of the INTP is deceptive. They are too curious to be truly phlegmatic or apathetic.

    They have that kind of drowsy, apathetic air about them as if they were half asleep. But that is only because they are always thinking.

    Appearances are deceptive.

    Personality has two facets. The cognitive wiring and temperament. But the facets are all the way interconnected. Where does one facet end and the other begin?

    In a no man's land.

    Some trees do not have leaves at all. But they are still trees.

  3. #33
    Member Andy K Octopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The ESTJ has always seemed like an entire tree to me.
    Especially the bad ESTJ you describe so well.

    The ESTJ (I am talking about the baddie) has a key role in the company. Always and inevitably. No one has given him/her the key role. She has assumed it.

    This chap I worked with was an ESTJ engineer. A quiet chap. He had assumed the key roll.
    I did not have a lodging in the town when I started working in the company. I had to live in a hotel, or otherwise I had to travel more than a hundred miles every day to get home.
    I said I need an apartment or something. He said no problem. That was about all he ever said.
    The same day he gave the keys. I moved in.

    The problem was he had the other key. When he (uninvited) came he did not ring the doorbell. He used the key. He walked around the apartment. He inspected every closet. He opened every drawer. He opened the fridge (what did he think I could possibly have in there?). He never said a word.
    He came every day. He never forgot to open the fridge. He never spoke.
    He came in also when I was not at home.

    Why did he come? We were not friends. We worked in the same project but our work was so different we did not need to engage socially because of it.

    Sometimes we were obliged to take a long trip together. Hundreds of miles he drove and never said a word. A quiet chap.
    The keyman.

    What representation of cognitive wiring is that? It is called the Passive-Aggressive Personality Type.

    Aggressive.

    attacking
    assaulting
    assailing
    invading
    offensive
    pushing
    self assertive

    Aggression

    hostile encroachement
    provocation
    offense

    Passive

    quiet (!)
    quiescent
    stoical
    enduring
    apathetic

    When he was in my company he was particularly apathetic. I cannot find a better word to describe the keyman.

    I once read a personality type description of the apathetic person. It curiously reminded me of everything I had read or what I knew about the ESTJ type.

    Of course some of them are simply too much openly aggressive and too energetic to be labelled the apathetic type. And some of them a phlegmatic.

    But there is a continuum here. It is said the apathetic type and the phlegmatic type is the best soldier. The ESTJs make the best soldiers.

    Some of the INTPs may seem phlegmatic or even apathetic. Drowsy fellows, eh?
    I think the phlegmacy of the INTP is deceptive. They are too curious to be truly phlegmatic or apathetic.

    They have that kind of drowsy, apathetic air about them as if they were half asleep. But that is only because they are always thinking.

    Appearances are deceptive.

    Personality has two facets. The cognitive wiring and temperament. But the facets are all the way interconnected. Where does one facet end and the other begin?

    In a no man's land.

    Some trees do not have leaves at all. But they are still trees.

    ESTJ's do not tend to be so quiet, at least from my experience. None of the two or three people I suspect who are ESTJs are quiet people. When they want something, they say it.

  4. #34
    Senior Member indigo2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Are you positive they aren't ESTP's? They don't sound like any J's I know of. J's just don't act like that, sorry. Plus, I think ESTJ's tend to be a little more professional than the people you described.
    I was actually about to ask you the same thing. They do sound like ESTP's to me too. All the ESTP's I know seem to have a lot of these characteristics.

    The ESTJ's I know are much more like how other's have described, having great work ethics and such.
    People who get nostalgic about childhood were obviously never children.
    Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes
    US cartoonist (1958 - )

  5. #35
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy K Octopus View Post
    ESTJ's do not tend to be so quiet, at least from my experience. None of the two or three people I suspect who are ESTJs are quiet people. When they want something, they say it.
    Correct. No objection.
    When they want something they pronounce it.
    Definitely.

    They pronounce it in strong terms, too.
    They even raise their voices a little when they allow themselves to be angry.

    So what.

    The theatre is there for the public.

  6. #36
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indigo2020 View Post
    I was actually about to ask you the same thing. They do sound like ESTP's to me too. All the ESTP's I know seem to have a lot of these characteristics.

    The ESTJ's I know are much more like how other's have described, having great work ethics and such.
    Ethics however is in the eye of the subject.

    Not in the eye of the object.

  7. #37
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Good points about ethics and trees Wildcat. It is true that there is integration between cognitive wiring and temperament within a persons personality, I don't have much clue as to where one starts and the other ends either but I do have the nagging feeling of two sources of personality and hence why I don't take MBTI at face value any more.

    It would be true to say that these ESTJs are focused on work ethics. I do not paint them in such a light as they are obsessed with their own version of ethics and hence are bad for morale and team spirit which makes us worse off as a whole.

    It is good though that such differences are coming to light. I started this thread to attempt to dispel the image that all ESTJs are alike and that their behaviour is soo wonderful for business but terrible at other things. I wanted to try to investigate some of the less known facets of this type and try to round out this most two dimensional of types.

    As for the classical analogy of type versus role in the army, I've heard it said that ESTJs are your sergeants. I wonder if ESTPs are the squaddies???
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #38
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Good points about ethics and trees Wildcat. It is true that there is integration between cognitive wiring and temperament within a persons personality, I don't have much clue as to where one starts and the other ends either but I do have the nagging feeling of two sources of personality and hence why I don't take MBTI at face value any more.

    It would be true to say that these ESTJs are focused on work ethics. I do not paint them in such a light as they are obsessed with their own version of ethics and hence are bad for morale and team spirit which makes us worse off as a whole.

    It is good though that such differences are coming to light. I started this thread to attempt to dispel the image that all ESTJs are alike and that their behaviour is soo wonderful for business but terrible at other things. I wanted to try to investigate some of the less known facets of this type and try to round out this most two dimensional of types.

    As for the classical analogy of type versus role in the army, I've heard it said that ESTJs are your sergeants. I wonder if ESTPs are the squaddies???
    I have seen a dozen or so ESTPs at a close range, because I used to frequent a coffee shop where the noble breed conglomerated.

    No, Xander. The ESTPs are not cannon fodder. You have to look for the grunts elsewhere.

    In fact, most of them were conscientious objectors. They never saw any barracks.

    The ESTPs are fit for more enjoyable things. They love to lounge in cafes and beer halls. They read newspapers (not the sport pages) and talk about movies and books and the arts and chess and actual events.

    And about women of course.

  9. #39
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    No one really enjoys being a grunt do they?

    I was thinking more in terms of ESTPs being good in a crisis and being very now focused which should be good for situational awareness and such.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Bet you learned lots. Still got the bruises?

    The stressing is a pain when you can't escape it or when they somehow reach the opinion that you'd do better if they stressed you a bit more. Very sergeant style.
    Absolutely. Yes. My ESTJ to a T (ack! pun injury.) If I'm not stressing, or even if I am, but internally rather than acting frantic, angry, etc. then I face accusations of not caring, or threats of actions that will "get my attention" and help me to "get it." Acting stressed doesn't seem to help either, though, because they seem to be very susceptible to groupthink and if I'm freaking out, then he's even more freaked out. I'm screwed either way.

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