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ESTJ - Collected Wisdom

Xander

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Most importantly, they'll take full responsibility for whatever I assign to them, and not try to pass blame off on the other members of the group.
This is one thing that makes me think that one in particular (if not all three) have issues as they do the opposite to this and shirk whenever they can. Must be one of those flip switches which gets tripped as they develop where it's totally one way during development and then one epiphany and BAM they're the total opposite.
For example, when we have done extra hard work preparing things for him, or we take in a lot of extra money, he makes sure we get a bonus check. Sometimes he buys everyone lunch to show appreciation.
Boy I wish this lot did that.

See this is sort of why I started this thread. Stories and examples of the good side of ESTJs are seemingly thin on the ground.
If his job was shoveling horse manure for minimum wage, he would still do it all day without complaining. That is just how he is.
Odd. Doesn't he complain? All three of these whine like their performing Herculean tasks every time they're asked to do anything.

Definitely looks like I got a dodgy batch :doh:
 

Andy K Octopus

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This is one thing that makes me think that one in particular (if not all three) have issues as they do the opposite to this and shirk whenever they can. Must be one of those flip switches which gets tripped as they develop where it's totally one way during development and then one epiphany and BAM they're the total opposite.

Boy I wish this lot did that.

See this is sort of why I started this thread. Stories and examples of the good side of ESTJs are seemingly thin on the ground.

Odd. Doesn't he complain? All three of these whine like their performing Herculean tasks every time they're asked to do anything.

Definitely looks like I got a dodgy batch :doh:

As an ESTJ, he tends to trust authority figures. And if his boss gives him a job, he just assumes it is what he should be doing and he does it. He rarely complains. He has an incredible work ethic. He does what he has to do, regardless of the amount of time it takes to do. (in contrast, I can only really work that hard when i believe in what I am doing, like working for a good cause or I am interested in the subject matter.)

He is bossy, and he expects us to snap into line when he needs us, but he also goes out of his way to reward us for doing a good job.

Like I said, as a strong NF type, I don't get him and he doesn't "get me", but we get along very well, and when I work hard for him, he makes sure I get taken care of.
 

proteanmix

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Oh ideally yes. It's just people get confused when I balance stuff out. I always get asked "so what are you trying to say here?". Hence I gave up. The OP is almost a brain dump and hence unadulterated and without niceties.

Aside from that do you think that when talking about how to get along with a certain type that it helps to have that type present or do you think that it would just be read as an attack and they'd spend most of their time defending?

I'd certainly like the input and granted it may seem like I have a downer on ESTJs but I really don't expect that any would have the time for a forum never mind an analysis of their respective strengths and weaknesses.

Would you want anyone talking about how to get along with you without consulting you? You know yourself well enough (hopefully) to give people pointers on how to deal with you. And so often we tend to look for things that confirm our notions of how people are supposed to act so anything that runs contrary to what we think gets discarded. So yes, I think we should consult the type in question before we start saying how they're going to act. For example, ask open ended questions and refrain from stating an opinion until the discussion gets going. That's how I operate and it works not all, but most of the time.

As far as the defend/attack thing, I know that I've had to work hard on not being offended about what people say about EFJs which speaks more about how much I've integrated my MBTI type into my identity than other people. If a person doesn't think as their type as part of their identity, then no, I don't think they'd be that offended or they're more capable of shrugging off criticism (valid or invalid).

If they have integrated their type into their identity then unrelenting criticism (constant descriptions of maladaptive behavior) would make them more defensive, especially when they're frantically waving a bright flag and yelling into a bullhorn "That's not me!" and people continue on ignoring them. From personal experience, it gets a little frustrating.
 

Athenian200

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Boy I wish this lot did that.

See this is sort of why I started this thread. Stories and examples of the good side of ESTJs are seemingly thin on the ground.

Odd. Doesn't he complain? All three of these whine like their performing Herculean tasks every time they're asked to do anything.

Definitely looks like I got a dodgy batch :doh:

Are you positive they aren't ESTP's? They don't sound like any J's I know of. J's just don't act like that, sorry. Plus, I think ESTJ's tend to be a little more professional than the people you described.
 

Totenkindly

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*quietly listening*

Would you want anyone talking about how to get along with you without consulting you?

This is a tangent, but I love hearing your viewpoint, PM, because you so often come up with very simple ideas that whap me right between the eyes.

I live in such an "introvert's world" ; I don't even think of going to the person, I always want to have myself figured out before I address them, and take care of as much on my own as possible.

But operating that way is not the only way to do things and often might not be the best either.

So while I can only take a little "shaking up" at a time, thank you being so often willing to speak up despite sometimes feeling like the minority opinion.

(I suppose this could have been a PM, but I just wanted to state it publicly, since I thought it was that important...)
 

proteanmix

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*quietly listening*



This is a tangent, but I love hearing your viewpoint, PM, because you so often come up with very simple ideas that whap me right between the eyes.

I live in such an "introvert's world" ; I don't even think of going to the person, I always want to have myself figured out before I address them, and take care of as much on my own as possible.

But operating that way is not the only way to do things and often might not be the best either.

So while I can only take a little "shaking up" at a time, thank you being so often willing to speak up despite sometimes feeling like the minority opinion.

(I suppose this could have been a PM, but I just wanted to state it publicly, since I thought it was that important...)

Thanks :blush: :)

I thought I'd just head of my minority opinion by making my sig what it is. Maybe I should get rid of it?
 

Totenkindly

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I thought I'd just head of my minority opinion by making my sig what it is. Maybe I should get rid of it?

What, the carping hell witch? Oh, I've been jealous of THAT. :) It's funny.
 

wildcat

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So are you asking for help or just bitching about ESTJs?
It is not difficult to learn the alphabet.
The idea to learn the alphabet is not for the sake of the alphabet alone.

The idea of the alphabet is to convey or to understand a meaning. A transliteration.

Do not be discouraged.
We all learn things we do not need.
 

Xander

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Are you positive they aren't ESTP's? They don't sound like any J's I know of. J's just don't act like that, sorry. Plus, I think ESTJ's tend to be a little more professional than the people you described.
I can see your thinking but I reckon that they are ESTJ, I'll try to go through why..
Theory X vs Theory Y - If you've studied management then you'll probably know these but if not then theory X (if I remember these the correct way around) is more about workers being lazy and requiring watching to make sure they don't slack off, it's about strict time management and marshalling the workforce. Theory Y is, obviously, it's opposite, workers do have some ethics and if you create a place where they can work in comfort then you'll get more out of them.

Now I'd say that theory X is negative SJ. I'd go one step further and say it suits a negative ESTJ very well. The theory Y is more INFP or something. Anyhow these guys are ALL theory X like it was a bible or something.

Question and answer - Were I dealing with an ESTP I'd expect to receive a lot more questions. My missus is an ESTP and even when she's wound up she'll pursue the answer until she's got it. This lot seem more comfortable making an assumption or a sweeping statement and walking off happy that they have judged the result to be X and so it is X.

Is a stick reversed still a stick? - This point goes to the core of why I sometimes disagree with people's assesment of a persons type (oh and I'm not criticising you Athenian, it's just part of my reasoning for believing that these guys are ESTJs). If a J is stressed then their "judgements" increase in rapidity until they can seem P in their lack of direction but they never reach it. What is, usually, a reliable and solid type can become very capricious and shifting under certain conditions. Hell I know an ISTJ who's normally a source of rules and rigidity of thinking but if you look at how he dresses then excuses appear and badly formed reasoning is very apparent. A J is judgemental by preference but they will use P when necessary and can become trapped in it. For example one ENFP which I know is quite the ENFJ and tests as such but is actually an ENFP. It's just that his background was one where J was appreciated a lot more and so he adjusted. Note that his type does not change but his personality does.

In regard to this behaviour the subject to which I refer spend a large amount of time sniping at others and defending themselves. They have no real self confidence and as such it's my guess that they are rapidly J-ing any threat to their self security and end up seeming quite P-ish.

Anyhow, wittering now. Carry on.
 

wildcat

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I can see your thinking but I reckon that they are ESTJ, I'll try to go through why..
Theory X vs Theory Y - If you've studied management then you'll probably know these but if not then theory X (if I remember these the correct way around) is more about workers being lazy and requiring watching to make sure they don't slack off, it's about strict time management and marshalling the workforce. Theory Y is, obviously, it's opposite, workers do have some ethics and if you create a place where they can work in comfort then you'll get more out of them.

Now I'd say that theory X is negative SJ. I'd go one step further and say it suits a negative ESTJ very well. The theory Y is more INFP or something. Anyhow these guys are ALL theory X like it was a bible or something.

Question and answer - Were I dealing with an ESTP I'd expect to receive a lot more questions. My missus is an ESTP and even when she's wound up she'll pursue the answer until she's got it. This lot seem more comfortable making an assumption or a sweeping statement and walking off happy that they have judged the result to be X and so it is X.

Is a stick reversed still a stick? - This point goes to the core of why I sometimes disagree with people's assesment of a persons type (oh and I'm not criticising you Athenian, it's just part of my reasoning for believing that these guys are ESTJs). If a J is stressed then their "judgements" increase in rapidity until they can seem P in their lack of direction but they never reach it. What is, usually, a reliable and solid type can become very capricious and shifting under certain conditions. Hell I know an ISTJ who's normally a source of rules and rigidity of thinking but if you look at how he dresses then excuses appear and badly formed reasoning is very apparent. A J is judgemental by preference but they will use P when necessary and can become trapped in it. For example one ENFP which I know is quite the ENFJ and tests as such but is actually an ENFP. It's just that his background was one where J was appreciated a lot more and so he adjusted. Note that his type does not change but his personality does.

In regard to this behaviour the subject to which I refer spend a large amount of time sniping at others and defending themselves. They have no real self confidence and as such it's my guess that they are rapidly J-ing any threat to their self security and end up seeming quite P-ish.

Anyhow, wittering now. Carry on.
Is the personality irrespective of type?
Give me the clue.
 

Xander

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Is the personality irrespective of type?
Give me the clue.
~Slight derailment dear boy but we should indulge (I like the side quests :) )

Type - This is a representation of your cognitive wiring (to use my father's analogy). It represents how your brain is wired up. I always saw this as each brain having the same wiring but there being less resistance and voltage drop over certain wires from birth and hence some favoured kinds of thinking appear. Of course the other wires can be upgraded or you can grin and bear the strain of using them every once in a while but that's never the route of least resistance.

Personality itself is too complex to be expressed in such simple terms as sixteen types with any accuracy at all and that's not really what the MBTI is about, though it often masquerades as such. Basically with the MBTI you observe the personality and, with the type, can decipher some of the more inobvious parts of that persons psyche.

For example what is the personality of an INTP?
I certainly don't have it and neither do you. What is this personality? We can certainly say what some of the features should be but only in terms of how thinks are processed and not what is included within that process nor can we say with any certainty what result the process will produce.

For example take intuitives. They link what they are thinking about to a resource of previous experiences and seemingly matching patterns. Well there's nothing about what they are linking to in specific and no note made about what result you would get (for one any attempt would produce a library of possibilities), as such how can it describe the personality of that person?

To put it in your words, is a leaf a tree? No a leaf is part of a tree but the tree is much, much more than it's leaves.
 

wildcat

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~Slight derailment dear boy but we should indulge (I like the side quests :) )

Type - This is a representation of your cognitive wiring (to use my father's analogy). It represents how your brain is wired up. I always saw this as each brain having the same wiring but there being less resistance and voltage drop over certain wires from birth and hence some favoured kinds of thinking appear. Of course the other wires can be upgraded or you can grin and bear the strain of using them every once in a while but that's never the route of least resistance.

Personality itself is too complex to be expressed in such simple terms as sixteen types with any accuracy at all and that's not really what the MBTI is about, though it often masquerades as such. Basically with the MBTI you observe the personality and, with the type, can decipher some of the more inobvious parts of that persons psyche.

For example what is the personality of an INTP?
I certainly don't have it and neither do you. What is this personality? We can certainly say what some of the features should be but only in terms of how thinks are processed and not what is included within that process nor can we say with any certainty what result the process will produce.

For example take intuitives. They link what they are thinking about to a resource of previous experiences and seemingly matching patterns. Well there's nothing about what they are linking to in specific and no note made about what result you would get (for one any attempt would produce a library of possibilities), as such how can it describe the personality of that person?

To put it in your words, is a leaf a tree? No a leaf is part of a tree but the tree is much, much more than it's leaves.
The ESTJ has always seemed like an entire tree to me.
Especially the bad ESTJ you describe so well.

The ESTJ (I am talking about the baddie) has a key role in the company. Always and inevitably. No one has given him/her the key role. She has assumed it.

This chap I worked with was an ESTJ engineer. A quiet chap. He had assumed the key roll.
I did not have a lodging in the town when I started working in the company. I had to live in a hotel, or otherwise I had to travel more than a hundred miles every day to get home.
I said I need an apartment or something. He said no problem. That was about all he ever said.
The same day he gave the keys. I moved in.

The problem was he had the other key. When he (uninvited) came he did not ring the doorbell. He used the key. He walked around the apartment. He inspected every closet. He opened every drawer. He opened the fridge (what did he think I could possibly have in there?). He never said a word.
He came every day. He never forgot to open the fridge. He never spoke.
He came in also when I was not at home.

Why did he come? We were not friends. We worked in the same project but our work was so different we did not need to engage socially because of it.

Sometimes we were obliged to take a long trip together. Hundreds of miles he drove and never said a word. A quiet chap.
The keyman.

What representation of cognitive wiring is that? It is called the Passive-Aggressive Personality Type.

Aggressive.

attacking
assaulting
assailing
invading
offensive
pushing
self assertive

Aggression

hostile encroachement
provocation
offense

Passive

quiet (!)
quiescent
stoical
enduring
apathetic

When he was in my company he was particularly apathetic. I cannot find a better word to describe the keyman.

I once read a personality type description of the apathetic person. It curiously reminded me of everything I had read or what I knew about the ESTJ type.

Of course some of them are simply too much openly aggressive and too energetic to be labelled the apathetic type. And some of them a phlegmatic.

But there is a continuum here. It is said the apathetic type and the phlegmatic type is the best soldier. The ESTJs make the best soldiers.

Some of the INTPs may seem phlegmatic or even apathetic. Drowsy fellows, eh?
I think the phlegmacy of the INTP is deceptive. They are too curious to be truly phlegmatic or apathetic.

They have that kind of drowsy, apathetic air about them as if they were half asleep. But that is only because they are always thinking.

Appearances are deceptive.

Personality has two facets. The cognitive wiring and temperament. But the facets are all the way interconnected. Where does one facet end and the other begin?

In a no man's land.

Some trees do not have leaves at all. But they are still trees.
 

Andy K Octopus

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The ESTJ has always seemed like an entire tree to me.
Especially the bad ESTJ you describe so well.

The ESTJ (I am talking about the baddie) has a key role in the company. Always and inevitably. No one has given him/her the key role. She has assumed it.

This chap I worked with was an ESTJ engineer. A quiet chap. He had assumed the key roll.
I did not have a lodging in the town when I started working in the company. I had to live in a hotel, or otherwise I had to travel more than a hundred miles every day to get home.
I said I need an apartment or something. He said no problem. That was about all he ever said.
The same day he gave the keys. I moved in.

The problem was he had the other key. When he (uninvited) came he did not ring the doorbell. He used the key. He walked around the apartment. He inspected every closet. He opened every drawer. He opened the fridge (what did he think I could possibly have in there?). He never said a word.
He came every day. He never forgot to open the fridge. He never spoke.
He came in also when I was not at home.

Why did he come? We were not friends. We worked in the same project but our work was so different we did not need to engage socially because of it.

Sometimes we were obliged to take a long trip together. Hundreds of miles he drove and never said a word. A quiet chap.
The keyman.

What representation of cognitive wiring is that? It is called the Passive-Aggressive Personality Type.

Aggressive.

attacking
assaulting
assailing
invading
offensive
pushing
self assertive

Aggression

hostile encroachement
provocation
offense

Passive

quiet (!)
quiescent
stoical
enduring
apathetic

When he was in my company he was particularly apathetic. I cannot find a better word to describe the keyman.

I once read a personality type description of the apathetic person. It curiously reminded me of everything I had read or what I knew about the ESTJ type.

Of course some of them are simply too much openly aggressive and too energetic to be labelled the apathetic type. And some of them a phlegmatic.

But there is a continuum here. It is said the apathetic type and the phlegmatic type is the best soldier. The ESTJs make the best soldiers.

Some of the INTPs may seem phlegmatic or even apathetic. Drowsy fellows, eh?
I think the phlegmacy of the INTP is deceptive. They are too curious to be truly phlegmatic or apathetic.

They have that kind of drowsy, apathetic air about them as if they were half asleep. But that is only because they are always thinking.

Appearances are deceptive.

Personality has two facets. The cognitive wiring and temperament. But the facets are all the way interconnected. Where does one facet end and the other begin?

In a no man's land.

Some trees do not have leaves at all. But they are still trees.


ESTJ's do not tend to be so quiet, at least from my experience. None of the two or three people I suspect who are ESTJs are quiet people. When they want something, they say it.
 

indigo2020

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Are you positive they aren't ESTP's? They don't sound like any J's I know of. J's just don't act like that, sorry. Plus, I think ESTJ's tend to be a little more professional than the people you described.
I was actually about to ask you the same thing. They do sound like ESTP's to me too. All the ESTP's I know seem to have a lot of these characteristics.

The ESTJ's I know are much more like how other's have described, having great work ethics and such.
 

wildcat

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ESTJ's do not tend to be so quiet, at least from my experience. None of the two or three people I suspect who are ESTJs are quiet people. When they want something, they say it.
Correct. No objection.
When they want something they pronounce it.
Definitely.

They pronounce it in strong terms, too.
They even raise their voices a little when they allow themselves to be angry.

So what.

The theatre is there for the public.
 

wildcat

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I was actually about to ask you the same thing. They do sound like ESTP's to me too. All the ESTP's I know seem to have a lot of these characteristics.

The ESTJ's I know are much more like how other's have described, having great work ethics and such.
Ethics however is in the eye of the subject.

Not in the eye of the object.
 

Xander

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Good points about ethics and trees Wildcat. It is true that there is integration between cognitive wiring and temperament within a persons personality, I don't have much clue as to where one starts and the other ends either but I do have the nagging feeling of two sources of personality and hence why I don't take MBTI at face value any more.

It would be true to say that these ESTJs are focused on work ethics. I do not paint them in such a light as they are obsessed with their own version of ethics and hence are bad for morale and team spirit which makes us worse off as a whole.

It is good though that such differences are coming to light. I started this thread to attempt to dispel the image that all ESTJs are alike and that their behaviour is soo wonderful for business but terrible at other things. I wanted to try to investigate some of the less known facets of this type and try to round out this most two dimensional of types.

As for the classical analogy of type versus role in the army, I've heard it said that ESTJs are your sergeants. I wonder if ESTPs are the squaddies???
 

wildcat

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Good points about ethics and trees Wildcat. It is true that there is integration between cognitive wiring and temperament within a persons personality, I don't have much clue as to where one starts and the other ends either but I do have the nagging feeling of two sources of personality and hence why I don't take MBTI at face value any more.

It would be true to say that these ESTJs are focused on work ethics. I do not paint them in such a light as they are obsessed with their own version of ethics and hence are bad for morale and team spirit which makes us worse off as a whole.

It is good though that such differences are coming to light. I started this thread to attempt to dispel the image that all ESTJs are alike and that their behaviour is soo wonderful for business but terrible at other things. I wanted to try to investigate some of the less known facets of this type and try to round out this most two dimensional of types.

As for the classical analogy of type versus role in the army, I've heard it said that ESTJs are your sergeants. I wonder if ESTPs are the squaddies???
I have seen a dozen or so ESTPs at a close range, because I used to frequent a coffee shop where the noble breed conglomerated.

No, Xander. The ESTPs are not cannon fodder. You have to look for the grunts elsewhere.

In fact, most of them were conscientious objectors. They never saw any barracks.

The ESTPs are fit for more enjoyable things. They love to lounge in cafes and beer halls. They read newspapers (not the sport pages) and talk about movies and books and the arts and chess and actual events.

And about women of course.
 

Xander

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No one really enjoys being a grunt do they?

I was thinking more in terms of ESTPs being good in a crisis and being very now focused which should be good for situational awareness and such.
 

Mia.

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Bet you learned lots. Still got the bruises? ;)

The stressing is a pain when you can't escape it or when they somehow reach the opinion that you'd do better if they stressed you a bit more. Very sergeant style.

Absolutely. Yes. My ESTJ to a T (ack! pun injury.) If I'm not stressing, or even if I am, but internally rather than acting frantic, angry, etc. then I face accusations of not caring, or threats of actions that will "get my attention" and help me to "get it." Acting stressed doesn't seem to help either, though, because they seem to be very susceptible to groupthink and if I'm freaking out, then he's even more freaked out. I'm screwed either way.
 
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