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  1. #21
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Most importantly, they'll take full responsibility for whatever I assign to them, and not try to pass blame off on the other members of the group.
    This is one thing that makes me think that one in particular (if not all three) have issues as they do the opposite to this and shirk whenever they can. Must be one of those flip switches which gets tripped as they develop where it's totally one way during development and then one epiphany and BAM they're the total opposite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy K Octopus View Post
    For example, when we have done extra hard work preparing things for him, or we take in a lot of extra money, he makes sure we get a bonus check. Sometimes he buys everyone lunch to show appreciation.
    Boy I wish this lot did that.

    See this is sort of why I started this thread. Stories and examples of the good side of ESTJs are seemingly thin on the ground.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy K Octopus View Post
    If his job was shoveling horse manure for minimum wage, he would still do it all day without complaining. That is just how he is.
    Odd. Doesn't he complain? All three of these whine like their performing Herculean tasks every time they're asked to do anything.

    Definitely looks like I got a dodgy batch
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #22
    Member Andy K Octopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    This is one thing that makes me think that one in particular (if not all three) have issues as they do the opposite to this and shirk whenever they can. Must be one of those flip switches which gets tripped as they develop where it's totally one way during development and then one epiphany and BAM they're the total opposite.

    Boy I wish this lot did that.

    See this is sort of why I started this thread. Stories and examples of the good side of ESTJs are seemingly thin on the ground.

    Odd. Doesn't he complain? All three of these whine like their performing Herculean tasks every time they're asked to do anything.

    Definitely looks like I got a dodgy batch
    As an ESTJ, he tends to trust authority figures. And if his boss gives him a job, he just assumes it is what he should be doing and he does it. He rarely complains. He has an incredible work ethic. He does what he has to do, regardless of the amount of time it takes to do. (in contrast, I can only really work that hard when i believe in what I am doing, like working for a good cause or I am interested in the subject matter.)

    He is bossy, and he expects us to snap into line when he needs us, but he also goes out of his way to reward us for doing a good job.

    Like I said, as a strong NF type, I don't get him and he doesn't "get me", but we get along very well, and when I work hard for him, he makes sure I get taken care of.

  3. #23
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Oh ideally yes. It's just people get confused when I balance stuff out. I always get asked "so what are you trying to say here?". Hence I gave up. The OP is almost a brain dump and hence unadulterated and without niceties.

    Aside from that do you think that when talking about how to get along with a certain type that it helps to have that type present or do you think that it would just be read as an attack and they'd spend most of their time defending?

    I'd certainly like the input and granted it may seem like I have a downer on ESTJs but I really don't expect that any would have the time for a forum never mind an analysis of their respective strengths and weaknesses.
    Would you want anyone talking about how to get along with you without consulting you? You know yourself well enough (hopefully) to give people pointers on how to deal with you. And so often we tend to look for things that confirm our notions of how people are supposed to act so anything that runs contrary to what we think gets discarded. So yes, I think we should consult the type in question before we start saying how they're going to act. For example, ask open ended questions and refrain from stating an opinion until the discussion gets going. That's how I operate and it works not all, but most of the time.

    As far as the defend/attack thing, I know that I've had to work hard on not being offended about what people say about EFJs which speaks more about how much I've integrated my MBTI type into my identity than other people. If a person doesn't think as their type as part of their identity, then no, I don't think they'd be that offended or they're more capable of shrugging off criticism (valid or invalid).

    If they have integrated their type into their identity then unrelenting criticism (constant descriptions of maladaptive behavior) would make them more defensive, especially when they're frantically waving a bright flag and yelling into a bullhorn "That's not me!" and people continue on ignoring them. From personal experience, it gets a little frustrating.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #24
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Boy I wish this lot did that.

    See this is sort of why I started this thread. Stories and examples of the good side of ESTJs are seemingly thin on the ground.

    Odd. Doesn't he complain? All three of these whine like their performing Herculean tasks every time they're asked to do anything.

    Definitely looks like I got a dodgy batch
    Are you positive they aren't ESTP's? They don't sound like any J's I know of. J's just don't act like that, sorry. Plus, I think ESTJ's tend to be a little more professional than the people you described.

  5. #25
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    *quietly listening*

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Would you want anyone talking about how to get along with you without consulting you?
    This is a tangent, but I love hearing your viewpoint, PM, because you so often come up with very simple ideas that whap me right between the eyes.

    I live in such an "introvert's world" ; I don't even think of going to the person, I always want to have myself figured out before I address them, and take care of as much on my own as possible.

    But operating that way is not the only way to do things and often might not be the best either.

    So while I can only take a little "shaking up" at a time, thank you being so often willing to speak up despite sometimes feeling like the minority opinion.

    (I suppose this could have been a PM, but I just wanted to state it publicly, since I thought it was that important...)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    *quietly listening*



    This is a tangent, but I love hearing your viewpoint, PM, because you so often come up with very simple ideas that whap me right between the eyes.

    I live in such an "introvert's world" ; I don't even think of going to the person, I always want to have myself figured out before I address them, and take care of as much on my own as possible.

    But operating that way is not the only way to do things and often might not be the best either.

    So while I can only take a little "shaking up" at a time, thank you being so often willing to speak up despite sometimes feeling like the minority opinion.

    (I suppose this could have been a PM, but I just wanted to state it publicly, since I thought it was that important...)
    Thanks

    I thought I'd just head of my minority opinion by making my sig what it is. Maybe I should get rid of it?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I thought I'd just head of my minority opinion by making my sig what it is. Maybe I should get rid of it?
    What, the carping hell witch? Oh, I've been jealous of THAT. It's funny.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So are you asking for help or just bitching about ESTJs?
    It is not difficult to learn the alphabet.
    The idea to learn the alphabet is not for the sake of the alphabet alone.

    The idea of the alphabet is to convey or to understand a meaning. A transliteration.

    Do not be discouraged.
    We all learn things we do not need.

  9. #29
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Are you positive they aren't ESTP's? They don't sound like any J's I know of. J's just don't act like that, sorry. Plus, I think ESTJ's tend to be a little more professional than the people you described.
    I can see your thinking but I reckon that they are ESTJ, I'll try to go through why..
    Theory X vs Theory Y - If you've studied management then you'll probably know these but if not then theory X (if I remember these the correct way around) is more about workers being lazy and requiring watching to make sure they don't slack off, it's about strict time management and marshalling the workforce. Theory Y is, obviously, it's opposite, workers do have some ethics and if you create a place where they can work in comfort then you'll get more out of them.

    Now I'd say that theory X is negative SJ. I'd go one step further and say it suits a negative ESTJ very well. The theory Y is more INFP or something. Anyhow these guys are ALL theory X like it was a bible or something.

    Question and answer - Were I dealing with an ESTP I'd expect to receive a lot more questions. My missus is an ESTP and even when she's wound up she'll pursue the answer until she's got it. This lot seem more comfortable making an assumption or a sweeping statement and walking off happy that they have judged the result to be X and so it is X.

    Is a stick reversed still a stick? - This point goes to the core of why I sometimes disagree with people's assesment of a persons type (oh and I'm not criticising you Athenian, it's just part of my reasoning for believing that these guys are ESTJs). If a J is stressed then their "judgements" increase in rapidity until they can seem P in their lack of direction but they never reach it. What is, usually, a reliable and solid type can become very capricious and shifting under certain conditions. Hell I know an ISTJ who's normally a source of rules and rigidity of thinking but if you look at how he dresses then excuses appear and badly formed reasoning is very apparent. A J is judgemental by preference but they will use P when necessary and can become trapped in it. For example one ENFP which I know is quite the ENFJ and tests as such but is actually an ENFP. It's just that his background was one where J was appreciated a lot more and so he adjusted. Note that his type does not change but his personality does.

    In regard to this behaviour the subject to which I refer spend a large amount of time sniping at others and defending themselves. They have no real self confidence and as such it's my guess that they are rapidly J-ing any threat to their self security and end up seeming quite P-ish.

    Anyhow, wittering now. Carry on.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #30
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I can see your thinking but I reckon that they are ESTJ, I'll try to go through why..
    Theory X vs Theory Y - If you've studied management then you'll probably know these but if not then theory X (if I remember these the correct way around) is more about workers being lazy and requiring watching to make sure they don't slack off, it's about strict time management and marshalling the workforce. Theory Y is, obviously, it's opposite, workers do have some ethics and if you create a place where they can work in comfort then you'll get more out of them.

    Now I'd say that theory X is negative SJ. I'd go one step further and say it suits a negative ESTJ very well. The theory Y is more INFP or something. Anyhow these guys are ALL theory X like it was a bible or something.

    Question and answer - Were I dealing with an ESTP I'd expect to receive a lot more questions. My missus is an ESTP and even when she's wound up she'll pursue the answer until she's got it. This lot seem more comfortable making an assumption or a sweeping statement and walking off happy that they have judged the result to be X and so it is X.

    Is a stick reversed still a stick? - This point goes to the core of why I sometimes disagree with people's assesment of a persons type (oh and I'm not criticising you Athenian, it's just part of my reasoning for believing that these guys are ESTJs). If a J is stressed then their "judgements" increase in rapidity until they can seem P in their lack of direction but they never reach it. What is, usually, a reliable and solid type can become very capricious and shifting under certain conditions. Hell I know an ISTJ who's normally a source of rules and rigidity of thinking but if you look at how he dresses then excuses appear and badly formed reasoning is very apparent. A J is judgemental by preference but they will use P when necessary and can become trapped in it. For example one ENFP which I know is quite the ENFJ and tests as such but is actually an ENFP. It's just that his background was one where J was appreciated a lot more and so he adjusted. Note that his type does not change but his personality does.

    In regard to this behaviour the subject to which I refer spend a large amount of time sniping at others and defending themselves. They have no real self confidence and as such it's my guess that they are rapidly J-ing any threat to their self security and end up seeming quite P-ish.

    Anyhow, wittering now. Carry on.
    Is the personality irrespective of type?
    Give me the clue.

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