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  1. #61
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    MBTI is like a Big Five test without the neuroticism dimension. That's really the only interesting thing about it. The theory behind it is utter, laughable crap, just like the theories of Freud.

    The Five Factor Model has by far the most support. There really is no competition, and the NEO-PI-R is the best and most reliable personality test out there. When I studied personality psychology, MBTI was never mentioned, and there was no research findings referenced in the book that used MBTI, while there were tons of studies which had used the Five Factor Model.

    You cannot really use MBTI in research and expect to be taken serisouly, the golden standard is the Five Factor Model...
    The MBTI's attempt to keep up is the Type Differentiation Indicator, which adds the Comfort-Discomfort dimension as the fifth factor. But this seems to be only a specialty instrument (like in psych wards or something).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    In 1984 two jungian analysts--Singer and Loomis-- began developing an alternative to MBTI, called the S-L TDI.
    The main reasons were:

    1) The profiles were not consistent with the characteristics of many individuals.
    2) Criticisms of MBTI

    In a nutshell, Singer and Loomis determined the cause:
    The oppositional pairs and the forced-choice test format.

    MBTI claims but never actually proves an ENTJ's order of 8 functions are:

    Te
    Ni
    Se
    Fi
    Ti
    Ne
    Si
    Fe

    MBTI doesn't allow for even the possibility of any other order.
    If one is seeking the truth, we don't do so by playing a rigged game.

    To validate (or invalidate) is easy:
    Test each function independently.
    If you claim the function order of a particular type is 12345678,
    then create a system to check it.

    Singer and Loomis did.

    They used a completely different test format: no forced-choice questions.
    Instead, they used a Likert scaled format: 20 situations, with 8 possible responses.
    Each response correlates with the two orientations ( extraverted or introverted), and 4 functions.
    The individual would rank how often they would respond a certain way,
    in each of the proposed scenarios. 1= never, leading up to 5=always.

    By doing so, they actually proved Jung's own assumption of bi-polarity,
    did not hold up for all, but did hold up for some.

    Data Source:
    Singer-Loomis TDI : The Next Generation of Psychological Type Instrument
    S. Dugan and K.Wilson
    Haskayne School of Business
    University of Calgary
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    July 3, 2002.
    I'd like to try that! It doesn't seem to be offered online anywhere, though I did find a site selling the reports and literature.

    Otherwise, the closest thing to this in concept would be Nardi's cognitive process tests. I wonder if he got the idea or drew from them.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  2. #62
    Senior Member FC3S's Avatar
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    Do you know what I use MBTI for? Part of my own research. Damn the functions to hell. Most of the people take an online quiz. A certain grouping has certain traits in common (but not always) through similar answers to the same questions, and will yield similar behaviors.

    Those behaviors are the only credible thing in MBTI and it is still dodgy.
    ESTP - Definition: "Love" is making a shot to the knees of a target a 120 km away, with an aratech sniper rifle and tri-light scope.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #63
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The MBTI's attempt to keep up is the Type Differentiation Indicator, which adds the Comfort-Discomfort dimension as the fifth factor. But this seems to be only a specialty instrument (like in psych wards or something).
    But it's still only a bad version of Big Five. It's a bastard child, based on very dodgy methods. The reliability and validity won't be close to NEO-PI-R. The methods used to arrive at the Five Factor Model are just incredibly elegant and completely data driven...
    "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." - Wolfgang Amad Mozart

  4. #64
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, MBTI is self validating.

    And that is the problem with delusions - they are self validating.
    Thank you Victor, a man who in one of his posts discounted logic as an ineffective means to solving problems, for pointing out my delusions.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  5. #65
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Thank you Victor, a man who in one of his posts discounted logic as an ineffective means to solving problems, for pointing out my delusions.
    Logic without creativity is impotent.

    While logic with creativity is fertile.

  6. #66
    heart on fire
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    I am curious what Victor's personal issue with MBTI is. I mean to spend so much of his time here campaigning against it tells us he has a deeper issue with it than someone who merely thinks it is baloney. So Victor. we're you turned down for a job because someone gave you the MBTI and you answered it honestly and they said ugh INF...no thanks?

    I agree with the concern over it being used to screen people in hiring but then I am concerned about any personality test (or God forbid DNA, brain scan etc) being used to screen people in hiring. It's like judging people guilty before they are allowed to prove themselves.

  7. #67
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am curious what Victor's personal issue with MBTI is. I mean to spend so much of his time here campaigning against it tells us he has a deeper issue with it than someone who merely thinks it is baloney. So Victor. we're you turned down for a job because someone gave you the MBTI and you answered it honestly and they said ugh INFP...no thanks?
    It's true, Heart, I proposed to a beautiful women who turned her nose up at me because I was an INFP.

    I never forgave her and devote my time to wreaking havoc on MBTI.

    And I can tell you, Heart, this unnamed beauty is reading this right now.

    But her name shall never pass my lips.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's true, Heart, I proposed to a beautiful women who turned her nose up at me because I was an INFP.

    I never forgave her and devote my time to wreaking havoc on MBTI.

    And I can tell you, Heart, this unnamed beauty is reading this right now.

    But her name shall never pass my lips.
    You told me you never took a test,
    and someone "assigned" you that type.
    Now what is real, and what is bullshit?

    How can anyone know you are really INFP?
    And even if you were, why would you propose to such a bigot?

    Find a woman with an actual brain, Victor.
    Women with brains don't decide who to marry,
    using 4 letters.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    It's not just a tool, it's supposed to be science, and it's clearly not very good science.
    Is it possible to disregard what it's "supposed" to be and instead just embrace it as a tool wherever it would be useful to do so? Because that's how a lot of people tend to approach MBTI.

    I've never heard MBTI discussed in-depth in psychology courses, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it has no use, does it?

  10. #70
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    You told me you never took a test,
    and someone "assigned" you that type.
    Now what is real, and what is bullshit?

    How can anyone know you are really INFP?
    And even if you were, why would you propose to such a bigot?

    Find a woman with an actual brain, Victor.
    Women with brains don't decide who to marry,
    using 4 letters.
    Don't feel too bad for Victor. He has his pony to keep him company but I have forgotten the pony's name.

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