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  1. #51
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    You are maybe of the opinion that psychology is not a science? MBTI is a personality psychology theory, and can be evaluated by scientific standards, and it doesn't fare very well.
    "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." - Wolfgang Amadé Mozart

  2. #52
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    I feel like MBTI makes us more judgemental. We expect people to be certain ways because we have casually typed them out it our heads. MBTI has kind of replaced the perception that I use to intuit other's personalities; it's all I can think about. I think about it too much, it really is a trance. I wonder, on the other hand, what some negative aspects of not knowing about MBTI might be..who knows, the pros and cons might be equal.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    It of course only becomes a scam if you pay for the test, and there's no real need for that IMO; there's such a wealth of free knowledge on the internet about the system (and a huge amount of free tests as a low-entry point) that anyone can become an authority on it if they have enough interest. I do draw the line at paying for a test, though. Seems like a waste of money to me.
    The best way to invalidate any psychological test is to apply it to yourself.

    Once you apply any psychological test, including a personality test, to yourself, it becomes subjective and so cannot produce objective results.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    I feel like MBTI makes us more judgemental. We expect people to be certain ways because we have casually typed them out it our heads. MBTI has kind of replaced the perception that I use to intuit other's personalities; it's all I can think about. I think about it too much, it really is a trance. I wonder, on the other hand, what some negative aspects of not knowing about MBTI might be..who knows, the pros and cons might be equal.

    Don't let Victor see your post. You just made his point. Lol.

    Like yourself, I have always used my intuition to read people.
    It has never let me down.
    I would never in a million years use MBTI to hire anyone.

    If you are intuitive, trust it.
    I always have, and I always will.
    It has served me well.

    If you were to look at this forum as a forest,
    and all the individual threads as trees,
    it takes seconds to see the big picture.
    I said it two years ago and I will say it again:
    MBTI is used as a weapon.

    It is derisive and divisive.

  5. #55
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    You are maybe of the opinion that psychology is not a science? MBTI is a personality psychology theory, and can be evaluated by scientific standards, and it doesn't fare very well.
    There is "hard science" and there is "soft science".

    If you put psychology to the same standards as math and physics, the whole field is likely to be classified as bunk.

    But being a "science-fascist" when it comes to fields like human behavior is not a reasonable way to go about it, especially when the scientific community is still in the dark (for the most part) on how the human brain works.

    The ancient Greeks had detailed astronomical charts that were used for accurate navigation, but they speculated that the stars were holes in the heavens from which the light escaped. Just because they were wrong about what stars were, doesn't mean that their knowledge of the stars' movements was useless.

    Same thing with Myers Briggs. It does not give you an accurate scientific justifications why one type behaves differently from another. But in my experience it has been an extremely useful tool when dealing with people and explaining their behavior. I will go as far as saying that it is the most useful knowledge that I have obtained in my entire life.

    Typology is a science in it's infancy (even though it has been talked about in one way or another for millenia), and there will be plenty of theories and original assessments that will be proven ineffective and will be discarded as a whole or replaced by more effective methods. I do not follow the "cognitive functions" part of the Myers Briggs. I've had people argue with me that since I dismiss the cognitive function part of the theory, which is (according to some) is an "essential part of the Jungian typology", then I discount the whole MBTI as a valid theory. That argument... is idiotic. David Kiersey established a system that avoids dealing with cognitive functions that I find to be a lot more effective than some of the original theories of Myers Briggs. And I'm sure down the road, someone will propose a theory that improves on the original works of Kiersey himself.

    But in conclusion, I just want to say that there are two types of people that show up on MBTI boards and grandiosely announce that MBTI is a "scam" or "no different from astrology": scientific fundamentalists who refuse to acknowledge the existence of anything that cannot be quantified by currently known scientific methods, and attention whores, who say things that are most likely to generate a controversy given the present crowd. And maybe it's just me, but I never got the impression that Victor is a science-type-of-guy.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    But in my experience it has been an extremely useful tool when dealing with people and explaining their behavior. I will go as far as saying that it is the most useful knowledge that I have obtained in my entire life.
    Yes, MBTI is self validating.

    And that is the problem with delusions - they are self validating.

  7. #57
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    There is "hard science" and there is "soft science".

    If you put psychology to the same standards as math and physics, the whole field is likely to be classified as bunk.

    But being a "science-fascist" when it comes to fields like human behavior is not a reasonable way to go about it, especially when the scientific community is still in the dark (for the most part) on how the human brain works.

    The ancient Greeks had detailed astronomical charts that were used for accurate navigation, but they speculated that the stars were holes in the heavens from which the light escaped. Just because they were wrong about what stars were, doesn't mean that their knowledge of the stars' movements was useless.

    Same thing with Myers Briggs. It does not give you an accurate scientific justifications why one type behaves differently from another. But in my experience it has been an extremely useful tool when dealing with people and explaining their behavior. I will go as far as saying that it is the most useful knowledge that I have obtained in my entire life.

    Typology is a science in it's infancy (even though it has been talked about in one way or another for millenia), and there will be plenty of theories and original assessments that will be proven ineffective and will be discarded as a whole or replaced by more effective methods. I do not follow the "cognitive functions" part of the Myers Briggs. I've had people argue with me that since I dismiss the cognitive function part of the theory, which is (according to some) is an "essential part of the Jungian typology", then I discount the whole MBTI as a valid theory. That argument... is idiotic. David Kiersey established a system that avoids dealing with cognitive functions that I find to be a lot more effective than some of the original theories of Myers Briggs. And I'm sure down the road, someone will propose a theory that improves on the original works of Kiersey himself.

    But in conclusion, I just want to say that there are two types of people that show up on MBTI boards and grandiosely announce that MBTI is a "scam" or "no different from astrology": scientific fundamentalists who refuse to acknowledge the existence of anything that cannot be quantified by currently known scientific methods, and attention whores, who say things that are most likely to generate a controversy given the present crowd. And maybe it's just me, but I never got the impression that Victor is a science-type-of-guy.
    And what do you know about the field of psychology? As far as methods goes, the experiment is extremely important in psychology. Modern psychology is not psychoanalysis, it is empirically driven, and I don't think it's comparable to other social sciences. It is very much comparable to medicine, though.

    MBTI is a joke of a theory and has pretty much been discarded.
    "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." - Wolfgang Amadé Mozart

  8. #58
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    And what do you know about the field of psychology? As far as methods goes, the experiment is extremely important in psychology. Modern psychology is not psychoanalysis, it is empirically driven, and I don't think it's comparable to other social sciences. It is very much comparable to medicine, though.
    Are we talking about the difference between psychiatry and psychology? And/or are we talking about the difference "negative" psychology and "positive" psychology (i.e. the difference between the study of mental diseases/chemical imbalances and the study of normal human behavior)?

    I just want to make sure we are on the same page here.

    MBTI is a joke of a theory and has pretty much been discarded.
    Honestly, I do not care too much that somebody somewhere thinks that an effective method that I use is "a joke".
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  9. #59
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Are we talking about the difference between psychiatry and psychology? And/or are we talking about the difference "negative" psychology and "positive" psychology (i.e. the difference between the study of mental diseases/chemical imbalances and the study of normal human behavior)?

    I just want to make sure we are on the same page here.
    I am talking about psychology. That being said, there is something known as biological psychology as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Honestly, I do not care too much that somebody somewhere thinks that an effective method that I use is "a joke".
    I am sure people who believe in astrology will say similar things... However, things like confirmation bias makes scientific research very necessary in order to evaluate such theories. MBTI can to a certain degree be used for such purposes, but Big Five is clearly better and more complete.

    You also remind me of the overconfidence phenomenon... It seems like many intuitives seem to believe they have almost magical abilites of intuition, and in labeling themselves as intuitives, they seem to only exhibit this phenomenon more... Show some humility!
    "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." - Wolfgang Amadé Mozart

  10. #60
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Things like confirmation bias makes scientific research very necessary in order to evaluate such theories. MBTI can to a certain degree be used for such purposes, but Big Five is clearly better and more complete.
    I have looked into Big 5 very briefly and did not find it to be as effective as MBTI for my purposes. Perhaps I will give it another try some time later.

    I aware of what "confirmation bias" entails, but if that's the case with me and my use of MBTI, then I must have been extremely lucky for the last 7 or so years with the useful results that I received from MBTI.

    I shall let you know if my luck changes.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

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