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  1. #131
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    Is this gift giver the same scamster brainwashing the unknowing masses with their typology? Victor, I'm beginning to think your playing with us

  2. #132
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Human beings are very complex, but we still have plenty of knowledge, I should know, studying psychology. Have you studied psychology? If you haven't, how can you evaluate what we know or don't know?
    I took a few psychology courses at the undergrad level. Nothing extremely in depth, but I did get the impression that some fields of psychology are still not understood sufficiently to escape the problem of subjective interpretation just yet.

    Until we can fully and completely explain every process involved in every second of human behavior, and therefore effectively predict it perfectly, there will still be use for such subjective comparison systems as MBTI. We're just working with such vague labels here that you can't expect more than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    And psychoanalysis can be unhelpful. It's utter bullshit. Some parts are more ridiculous that others, of course, but I do take issue with the negative view of human nature and so on. Take for example the catharsis hypothesis. If you have anger issues, you might try to relieve the anger through playing violent video games. Psychoanalysis suggests that should make you less violent. Not so! It's like using gasoline to put out a fire. The catharsis hypothesis has been proved false to death by psychology by now. Just one example of the knowledge we have about human emotions. There is a reason why psychoanalysis is considered to mostly be of historical interest, and in complete contrast to psychoanalsysis modern psychology are based on sound quantitative methods.
    I mean psychoanalysis as a more general term covering all forms of psychiatric treatment that are based purely on discussion with a psychiatric/psychological professional (as opposed to medication or other physically applied medicine.) Not really referring to the precise methods of Freud.

    My mistake for not specifying, but the point should be obvious--not all perspectives worth considering are objectively quantifiable. The *modern* interpretation of MBTI, as far as I can tell from the material I've read on it, doesn't purport to be scientific, and serves a different purpose altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Big 5 is indeed somehow science, and I described to you how scientists arrived at it, using the lexical and statistical approaches. That's why it's so much better than MBTI, because it's based on sound methods. People differ in a million ways, and the task of scientists in the dispositional domain of personality psychology is to find out which are the most fundamental, to find the structure of traits and sub-traits. When MBTI is leaving out the fundamental trait neuroticism, that's not to be taken lightly, it's a glaring gap in the taxonomy. It's simply the death of the theory, it's not complete enough. Extroversion and neuroticism are the two most agreed-upon traits.
    If Big 5 is a truly scientifically consistent model of personality theory (which I doubt, or it would be taught ubiquitously in psychology courses), then it doesn't even serve the same purpose as MBTI because MBTI's purpose is purely subjective.

    You Te doms really don't get this "subjective" thing at all, do you?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #133
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If Big 5 is a truly scientifically consistent model of personality theory (which I doubt, or it would be taught ubiquitously in psychology courses), then it doesn't even serve the same purpose as MBTI because MBTI's purpose is purely subjective.
    I can promise you it is taught in every serious personality psychology course in the world. The field of psychology is however massive, so it won't be a part of every psychology course. A course that teaches MBTI, but not Big 5, must be a bad course, completely out of touch with the current field of psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You Te doms really don't get this "subjective" thing at all, do you?
    "Subjective" in what sense? In the same sense as astrology? I see the usefulness in neither, although I see confirmation bias and perceived usefulness. Or are you saying people accommodate MBTI into the models they use for predicting and understanding others? And sure they can find that useful, but that doesn't mean it really makes them better at understanding others. And if they became better, it wouldn't necessarily be because of MBTI, but it might just be more awareness. That being said, there is some usefulness in using MBTI in a Big 5 like fashion, although it's not as good.
    "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." - Wolfgang Amadé Mozart

  4. #134
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    I can promise you it is taught in every serious personality psychology course in the world. The field of psychology is however massive, so it won't be a part of every psychology course. A course that teaches MBTI, but not Big 5, must be a bad course, completely out of touch with the current field of psychology.
    Really? I suppose you ought to write letters to a lot of professors, then, mine included. I'm sure they're all just uneducated hacks, though, in comparison to a person of such intellectual stature as yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    That being said, there is some usefulness in using MBTI in a Big 5 like fashion, although it's not as good.
    Oh? How can there be ANY usefulness without objective verification???

    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    "Subjective" in what sense? In the same sense as astrology? I see the usefulness in neither, although I see confirmation bias and perceived usefulness.
    No, no, no, and no. MBTI isn't even conceptually similar to astrology.

    Astrology attempts objectivity and fails miserably because it clearly and objectively defines its categories according to birth date, and then makes up nonsense that, supposedly, all people with x DOB will behave similarly in y way, etc. etc.

    MBTI makes no attempt at establishing any such correlation. There is a clear difference in form here because MBTI's categorizations are arbitrary and subjective, and vary from person to person. There's no objective definition of what an INFJ is, only a general consensus by people who've arbitrarily defined it however they want. There is, however, a clear objective definition of a Taurus--it's necessarily everyone born between date x and date y. MBTI doesn't use any clear cut, measurable data like that.

    Astrology bluntly declares that there are common behavioral threads between people who have random, irrelevant demographics in common. MBTI makes no such claim; it simply suggests that common behavioral patterns do exist between people, and that these arbitrarily chosen letters might be helpful to consider in forming your own personality archetypes to compare other people to.

    MBTI isn't even useful for every personality out there--if one displays very moderated behavior on two or more of the four scales, then clearly very little added predictability or comprehension is gained. If you're going to use subjective systems like this, you have to know when NOT to trust them.

    Once again, there's never any claim of anything objectively verifiable. People test into different types than they previously had all the time; the only use is in creating imaginary archetypes by which to group people and compare their perceived tendencies. Besides, changing my perception of you from ISTJ to ISFJ doesn't invalidate everything I already gained--the two are conceptually similar archetypes. If the types weren't supposed to have apparent similarities, they wouldn't be named with letters that suggest characteristics in common between types.

    Your use of the term "perceived usefulness" displays a fundamentally different perspective on what's "useful" than that of MBTI fans. For Ne, simply comparing various possible interpretations is an end unto itself; it doesn't matter if we accomplish any objectively verifiable goals in the external world. Just looking for common threads and placing them into mental frameworks gets us off, and that's good enough. Comprehending any possible interpretation of observed patterns IS a goal on its own!

    If you don't get the value in this, just give up, take the INTJ out of your profile and stop posting on message boards devoted to a virtually useless concept.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #135
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post

    A projection is a gift.

    INFP has been projected onto me and I honour the gift.
    So I wear the albatross of INFP around my neck so the gift giver may fly.

    Enough of the evasive double-talk, Victor.
    Cut your martini intake by half.

  6. #136
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    ^ Madeira seems to be more Victor's style?

  7. #137
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    Astrology bluntly declares that there are common behavioral threads between people who have random, irrelevant demographics in common.
    No, you bluntly declare that.

    Say, 10 people are born 1-1-1971 at 6:06 A.M. Atlanta, Georgia.
    It's a specific month, day, year, time, latitude and longitude.
    There is nothing "random" about the birth data.

    In order to attack something,
    it would behoove you to know what you are talking about.
    Clearly you do not.
    You suggest Astrology=Sun sign alone.
    That's grossly incorrect.

    MBTI [...] simply suggests that common behavioral patterns do exist between people, and that these arbitrarily chosen letters might be helpful to consider in forming your own personality archetypes to compare other people to.
    Again, you are grossly incorrect.
    MBTI claims: A SPECIFIC AND PREDETERMINED JUNGIAN FUNCTION ORDER FOR EACH TYPE. .

    You choose to turn a blind eye to the facts,
    to serve your own purpose.


    Besides, changing my perception of you from ISTJ to ISFJ doesn't invalidate everything I already gained--the two are conceptually similar archetypes. If the types weren't supposed to have apparent similarities, they wouldn't be named with letters that suggest characteristics in common between types.
    All day you have been calling that guy a dom Te.
    Now you are calling him an ISTJ or ISFJ?
    Those types don't even have dom Te.

    If you don't get the value in this, just give up, take the INTJ out of your profile and stop posting on message boards devoted to a virtually useless concept.
    This is not MBTI Central. It is Typology Central.

    What's odd is you harassing the INTJ all day,
    knowing full well you don't even support MBTI.
    There is no MBTI without the Jungian functions.
    That fact will never change.

    You constantly refer to the Jungian functions when they serve your purpose,
    such as making snide remarks about Te.

    Do you think Jungian functions have value or not?
    Do you think Jung was a knowledgeable psychologist or not?

    Make up your mind.
    Have some consistency of thought.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Enough of the double-talk, Victor.
    I would prefer double-barrelled.

    However when I say -
    So I wear the INFP albatross around my neck so the gift giver may fly.
    Any sailor will know to kill an albatross brings the very worst of bad luck at sea. And bad luck at sea is very bad indeed.

    Killing an albatross is not only an offence against the albatross, but an offence against the God of the Sea, Poseidon.

    But worse, killing an albatross is an offence against beauty, which is unforgivable.

    So any sailor who kills an albatross is condemned to wear the albatross around his neck for the rest of his life.

    So what could possibly compensate anyone for wearing an albatross around his neck?

    Having killed beauty on the wing, the only response is to give wing to the gift giver, the life taker.

    As one bird dies, another takes to the skies.

  9. #139
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Somebody read the Rime of the Ancient Mariner today.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #140
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    ^ Madeira seems to be more Victor's style?

    If drinking Madeira can get Victor ol' boy to spew forth that kind of drivel,
    that's a wild-assed substance.


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