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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    You really have a gift for hyperbole. In fact, an admin at this site (that would be me) has responded in partial agreement with you. I daresay if this thread posed a thread to the site in any way it would have been deleted by Haight already.

    "Most people" don't post on typology forums, this one or any other. Most people are either unaware it exists, know about it but don't really care, or know about it and care a little. People invested enough in any kind of typology to discuss it on the internet are pretty few and far between, I'd think.
    MBTI fits perfectly into the culture of commodification.

    We live in a consumer culture where everything has been commodified for sale.

    So how natural to commodify human beings as well.

    And of course MBTI sorts us and brands us with, God help us, four letters, just as the Jews were tattooed on their wrists.

    And being sorted and branded we can be manipulated and disposed of.

    Every item you buy at the supermarket has a barcode, and now thanks to MBTI, I have a barcode as well - INFP.

    My barcode tells you all you need to know about my psyche in order to manipulate me.

    My barcode turns me into a means rather than an end.

    But the truth is that I am an end in myself.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    In fact this thread is a direct threat to the power structure of this site.

    This thread is a direct threat to those with a vested interest in MBTI

    This thread is as "threatening" as a used condom.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    This thread is as "threatening" as a used condom.
    Of course it is threatening at the intellectual level.

    It presents an alternative viewpoint to MBTI.

    And the way to end any trance is not to try to end it, but to introduce an extraneous element into the trance, and the particular trance will peter out by itself.

    So I would not dare to try to end the MBTI trance here, because it would have the opposite effect and make the trance stronger.

    No, I simply introduce an extraneous point of view.

    And already some here have taken up this meme and are repeating it.

    But from a believers point of view, this extraneous meme is a virus which can only grow and spread.

    However it is very important not to back the tiger of MBTI into a corner, otherwise he will tear you to pieces.

    No, you always give a cornered tiger a way out.

    And the way out is our new masthead which says, "Typology Central".

    In this way the tiger can save his face by calling himself, "A Typologist", without repudiating MBTI.

    And as a further face saver, we allow him to keep under the masthead the legend, "A Personality Type Indicator Community".

    And we can't offer better than that.

    And further, I think we should call this, "The Typology Central Settlement".

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Is that why there are 118 posts on this thread - because on one cares about it?

    In fact this thread is a direct threat to the power structure of this site.

    This thread is a direct threat to those with a vested interest in MBTI.

    And naturally they have responded to the threat - just as your immune system responds to the threat of an infection.

    In fact what we are looking at is an emotional immune response to cognitive dissonance.

    For some are for MBTI and some against - and this produces cognitive dissonance.

    And cognitive dissonance produces emotional pain which mobilises the emotional immune response of denial, rationalisation and finally insults.

    But we must remember that cognitive dissonance is a sign that learning is taking place.

    Sure, learning is painful - like stretching an unused muscle.

    And taking part in the adventure of learning leads to discovery and understanding.

    Who could wish for anything more?
    I don't think it is that serious. I know what your response will be, but still I don't.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    I don't think it is that serious. I know what your response will be, but still I don't.
    I hardly need to respond if you already know.

    And as you know, millions upon millions of people, perhaps hundreds of millions or even more, think astrology is not that serious.

    But no astronomer in the entire world believes in astrology.

    This is an extraordinary cognitive dissonance that is crying out for an explanation.

    And to say that it is not that serious and you know what I will say, seems to me to be denial, rationalisation and even a hint of insult, in the face of the emotional pain of cognitive dissonance.

    I don't know why you don't get bored with your lack of curiosity.

    All I can suggest is that you are emotionally comfortable in your MBTI trance.

  6. #126
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    This is based on the false assumption you can only study that which you can see, which is completely false.
    Well, it's good to know that false assumptions are completely false. It's also good to know that I don't actually believe, nor have I ever said or implied, that I believe we can study only that which we can see.

    It's based on the correct assumption that in the grand scheme of things, we don't really know that much about the human brain just yet. Emotions are only vaguely understood as caused by certain chemical reactions, but our understanding of the way they interact to create which human behaviors is shaky at best.

    Of course psychoanalysis *can* be helpful to some people for sorting out their emotional problems, but then again, we can't objectively measure the results for scientific verification, so screw it.

    Remember, with MBTI we don't explain behavior so much as categorize it, according to arbitrary standards that are totally made up. These standards vary from person to person and therefore are strictly subjective from person to person.

    If science finds a way to objectively prove that the four statements mentioned earlier are untrue--that is, that people don't really prefer introversion to extroversion or logical judgment to emotional--I would be absolutely stunned, as I assumed this was intuitively obvious to everyone.

    Nobody is claiming that there are precise biological mechanisms in the brain that correspond linearly to these preference ideas--we just observe and categorize for future reference. You and everyone else already do the same things I'm doing when I use typology; I just happen to use a different naming system.

    But if that were to happen, I'd give up MBTI.

    Seriously Te, pipe down--you don't always need an objectively measurable goal to make something worth considering. Note that I say considering, because MBTI is only one of many possible interpretations from which to draw influence on one's own belief system regarding personal interactions. I know, I know--Te comes screaming in again, to the tragic exclusion of Ni, to remind us how OMG I CAN'T PUT IT IN A TEST TUBE AND RECORD THE QUANTITY IT'S INVALID LOLZ

    Grow some Ne/Ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Do you doubt the existence of atoms, just because scientists can't see them? How do I know that the psychological structure of people are fundamentally similar? Because of evolution through natural selection. Just like our bodies fundamentally functions very similarly, our brains does as well.
    Irrelevant straw man; see above.



    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    What to say about this ludicrous analogy? Do I think one better understand human beings by being trained in psychology? Yes, but there is only a point to this training if the skill is relevant (the theory is good). If the theory is bullshit, it's like learning a non-relevant skill.
    Ahhh, and finally we arrive at the crux of the Te overload argument against MTBI.

    "If it's not objectively measurable, why do you bother?"

    And I'm afraid that's something nobody can really quite explain to you, if you don't already intuitively get it.

    Try to understand that for Ne+Ti (or whatever you want to call external abstract pattern perception+internally consistent framework for comparison to future data), it doesn't matter if there's any objectively measureable goal--considering a different perspective actually IS an end unto itself.

    We like solving puzzles and making connections, and we leave no stone unturned. Ne+Ti=Low productivity, high chance of breakthrough.

    Ni+Te=vice versa.


    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Because I am bored, because I love psychology and discussing it, because MBTI has sentimental value to me, and because there is some usefulness in viewing MBTI is a weak version of Big Five. The correlations are medium-high on the dimensions... I am an addict to applying theory, to seeing connections, and that's what I get out of it.
    Seriously? You already understand this and you're still keeping up this silly "omg it's not science" argument? Who are you trying to convince here, anyway?

    Let me get this straight, though--your only real argument is that we should use Big 5 for these purposes instead of MBTI, because it adds one more dimension and is therefore marginally more descriptive?

    So...all the shit about how it's useless if not scientifically verifiable...? You don't even believe that? Or is Big 5 somehow science?

    I'm honestly a little confused now.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #127
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's based on the correct assumption that in the grand scheme of things, we don't really know that much about the human brain just yet. Emotions are only vaguely understood as caused by certain chemical reactions, but our understanding of the way they interact to create which human behaviors is shaky at best.
    Human beings are very complex, but we still have plenty of knowledge, I should know, studying psychology. Have you studied psychology? If you haven't, how can you evaluate what we know or don't know?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Of course psychoanalysis *can* be helpful to some people for sorting out their emotional problems, but then again, we can't objectively measure the results for scientific verification, so screw it.
    And psychoanalysis can be unhelpful. It's utter bullshit. Some parts are more ridiculous that others, of course, but I do take issue with the negative view of human nature and so on. Take for example the catharsis hypothesis. If you have anger issues, you might try to relieve the anger through playing violent video games. Psychoanalysis suggests that should make you less violent. Not so! It's like using gasoline to put out a fire. The catharsis hypothesis has been proved false to death by psychology by now. Just one example of the knowledge we have about human emotions. There is a reason why psychoanalysis is considered to mostly be of historical interest, and in complete contrast to psychoanalsysis modern psychology are based on sound quantitative methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Let me get this straight, though--your only real argument is that we should use Big 5 for these purposes instead of MBTI, because it adds one more dimension and is therefore marginally more descriptive?

    So...all the shit about how it's useless if not scientifically verifiable...? You don't even believe that? Or is Big 5 somehow science?

    I'm honestly a little confused now.
    Big 5 is indeed somehow science, and I described to you how scientists arrived at it, using the lexical and statistical approaches. That's why it's so much better than MBTI, because it's based on sound methods. People differ in a million ways, and the task of scientists in the dispositional domain of personality psychology is to find out which are the most fundamental, to find the structure of traits and sub-traits. When MBTI is leaving out the fundamental trait neuroticism, that's not to be taken lightly, it's a glaring gap in the taxonomy. It's simply the death of the theory, it's not complete enough. Extroversion and neuroticism are the two most agreed-upon traits.
    "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." - Wolfgang Amadé Mozart

  8. #128
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Of course it is threatening at the intellectual level.

    It presents an alternative viewpoint to MBTI.
    Why don't you delete INFP from your profile?

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I hardly need to respond if you already know.

    And as you know, millions upon millions of people, perhaps hundreds of millions or even more, think astrology is not that serious.

    But no astronomer in the entire world believes in astrology.

    This is an extraordinary cognitive dissonance that is crying out for an explanation.

    And to say that it is not that serious and you know what I will say, seems to me to be denial, rationalisation and even a hint of insult, in the face of the emotional pain of cognitive dissonance.

    I don't know why you don't get bored with your lack of curiosity.

    All I can suggest is that you are emotionally comfortable in your MBTI trance.
    Perhaps if I took this stuff more seriously I would get where your coming from. Personally I take very little at face value without some verification and experimentation on my part. My experience with MBTI is that it is mostly horse shit. I take what is useful to me and I move on.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Why don't you delete INFP from your profile?
    What can I say?

    A projection is a gift.

    INFP has been projected onto me and I honour the gift.

    Sometimes a little child will give me a gift - it can be anything - usually small and irrelevant - but I always accept a gift from a small child with a smile - and give something immediately back.

    I understand that when a small child is spontaneously giving me a gift, they are offering themselves. So the least I can do is offer myself back.

    It may well be that the gifts are completely worthless, but it is the gift giving that I honour.

    And of course at a deeper level the gift symbolizes ourselves, so to reject a gift is to reject the other person, the gift giver.

    And to accept a gift is to accept the other person. And to give a gift is to ask the other person to accept you.

    So I wear the albatross of INFP around my neck so the gift giver may fly.

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