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I STILL don't understand MBTI.

raz

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Well, not just intellectualism, but the whole perfectionism thing, curiosity, the desire to figure things out, etc.

It's more about intuition with a personal vs. impersonal bent. Your intuition gives you an ability to "figure things out" intuitively, making the energy cost much lower. However, the NTs are much more likely to surpass you when it comes to using the intuition in combination with objective analysis as opposed to personal relations. It's about being a Thinker. The Thinker won't be bothered if something is void of a human aspect.
 

Athenian200

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I'll try my best not to derail the thread too much but...

a) What's the cause of perfectionism?

In my case, I suppose J need for completion, combined with N tendency to obsess over abstractions. Ni tends to dwell on an abstraction longer than Ne, meaning we're more perfectionist than NPs. We're also more likely to try and view a situation strategically, in terms of our goals, thinking of all the ways we could reach them.

I daresay that NFs are described with NP-ish qualities, and NTs are described with somewhat NJ-ish qualities. This could very well be why INFJs struggle to type themselves at first.
b) Is curiosity and desire to figure out things really connected to NT or T?

Most NTs think so. I've actually been questioning that, though if you take that away, there's nothing left to make NTs stand out. raz seems to agree:



It's more about intuition with a personal vs. impersonal bent. Your intuition gives you an ability to "figure things out" intuitively, making the energy cost much lower. However, the NTs are much more likely to surpass you when it comes to using the intuition in combination with objective analysis as opposed to personal relations. It's about being a Thinker. The Thinker won't be bothered if something is void of a human aspect.

I've never really encountered this, though I know this is how it should be theoretically. It seems as if I've been surpassed in objective analysis by some NTs, and surpassed others myself. They don't really seem more or less likely to do so than other Ns in my experience.
 

raz

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I've never really encountered this, though I know this is how it should be theoretically. It seems as if I've been surpassed in objective analysis by some NTs, and surpassed others myself. They don't really seem more or less likely to do so than other Ns in my experience.

Maybe you mistyped the NTs? Is the problem of you not understanding these two temperaments, Thinking vs. Feeling or Intuition?
 

Snow Turtle

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In my case, I suppose J need for completion, combined with N tendency obsess over abstractions. Ni tends to dwell on an abstraction longer than Ne, meaning we're more perfectionist than NPs. We're also more likely to try and view a situation strategically, in terms of our goals, thinking of all the ways we could reach them.

I daresay that NFs are described with NP-ish qualities, and NTs are described with somewhat NJ-ish qualities. This could very well be why INFJs struggle to type themselves at first.

That doesn't really explain the cause behind the perfectionism though, only how it manifests itself and could be linked to functions etc. Essentially what has been said is "I have Ni and J therefore I'm perfectionistic".

Then again it depends on how you view MBTI I suppose. I take on the belief that it's used only to describe our current operation, rather than that it's just inherent within us from birth.

Most NTs think so. I've actually been questioning that, though if you take that away, there's nothing left to make NTs stand out. raz seems to agree:

Intellectual curiosity is something that I don't think can be ascribed to a particular temperament. It's more to do with the sort of thing that one puts focus on imo and NTs usually have a different focus to NFs etc.

For example: There are plenty of people who are interested in figuring out things, for the sake of using it. There are plenty of people who are interested in learning a physical hobby for the sake of becoming skilled. This is the same for mental activities such as chess or thinking in general.
 

Athenian200

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Maybe you mistyped the NTs? Is the problem of you not understanding these two temperaments, Thinking vs. Feeling or Intuition?
I didn't type the NTs. They were self-typed.

I understand the two temperaments. NTs are supposed to be strategic, objective, focused on competence, etc. NFs are supposed to curious about their identity, finding what's meaningful, humanity in general, etc.
 

Eric B

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One thing that bothers me about temperament. SJ is associated with Melancholic, while NF is associated with Choleric. How many Choleric ESJs and Melancholic INFs (like me) do you know?
Well, there's also the Interaction Styles representing the ancient temperaments. So ESTJ is very Choleric (In Charge) and INFJ is Melancholic (Chart the Course). In fact, since this represents surface social skills, they'll likely be more obvious.
However, I don't believe it is only Sensors who can do this. Obviously, Keirsey himself is an Intuitive type, and I have seen others such as one of my co-workers (who is INFJ) grasp the system quite well and do a bang-up job of observing these behaviors in people she encounters, especially her fellow Idealists, who she seems to now almost have a radar for.
It seems that NFP's are the iNtuitives least likely to want to break things down, and instead want to focus on the basic or "holistic" concepts and use it for growth and self-knowledge. The difference between then and NFJ's is Ti/Fi of course.
 

Athenian200

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That doesn't really explain the cause behind the perfectionism though, only how it manifests itself and could be linked to functions etc. Essentially what has been said is "I have Ni and J therefore I'm perfectionistic".

Well, to be honest... I don't know why I'm perfectionistic. There are several motivations. One is that I don't want to be embarrassed by being caught with imperfect knowledge by others. Another is that I want any knowledge or system I'm going to rely on to any degree to be as accurate as possible. Finally, there's just a general curiosity to see how far I can push my understanding of the system, how good I can get at using it.
Then again it depends on how you view MBTI I suppose. I take on the belief that it's used only to describe our current operation, rather than that it's just inherent within us from birth.

Oh. So you mean it's about behavior rather than perspective? So that means type could change over time, right?
Intellectual curiosity is something that I don't think can be ascribed to a particular temperament. It's more to do with the sort of thing that one puts focus on imo and NTs usually have a different focus to NFs etc.

For example: There are plenty of people who are interested in figuring out things, for the sake of using it. There are plenty of people who are interested in learning a physical hobby for the sake of becoming skilled. This is the same for mental activities such as chess or thinking in general.

Yeah, that's a good point. This may sound silly, but I'm inclined to joke that intellectual curiosity is inherent in people, but it's the defining feature of NTs, because they actually have no personality. :smile: (I'm kidding, of course)
 

Athenian200

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Well, there's also the Interaction Styles representing the ancient temperaments. So ESTJ is very Choleri (In Charge) and INFJ is Melancholic (Chart the Course). In fact, since this represents surface social skills, they'll likely be more obvious.

Well, yeah. Interaction styles DO make sense to me (and were helpful in figuring out my type), but they were talking about Keirsey. Keirsey divides them across temperaments, and they're all saying that the temperament is the easiest thing to observe in people... which I find not to be the case.
It seems that NFP's are the iNtuitives least likely to want to break things down, and instead want to focus on the basic concepts and use it for growth and self-knowledge. The difference between then and NFJ's is Ti/Fi of course.

I'd agree, because I'm very interested in breaking things down and trying to figure out how they work in my head. I struggle with the limitations of application, though.
 

Snow Turtle

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Well, to be honest... I don't know why I'm perfectionistic. There are several motivations. One is that I don't want to be embarrassed by being caught with imperfect knowledge by others. Another is that I want any knowledge or system I'm going to rely on to any degree to be as accurate as possible. Finally, there's just a general curiosity to see how far I can push my understanding of the system, how good I can get at using it.

The first motivation linked fear of failure. Why is there a fear of failure?
The second and third one are good reasons. But one can still ask: Why is there a need to do so? What compells someone to do so?

For example: The fear of rejection is very feeling oriented.

Oh. So you mean it's about behavior rather than perspective? So that means type could change over time, right?

Well... sort of. Behaviour is connected to internal cognition/perspective, so I'm not one that claims that type is based just on external actions. But yes, I'm a believer that type could change in extreme circumstances. However most people just settle with a certain pattern of thinking as it's most comfortable.

Yeah, that's a good point. This may sound silly, but I'm inclined to joke that intellectual curiosity is inherent in people, but it's the defining feature of NTs, because they actually have no personality. :smile: (I'm kidding, of course)

:huh: :devil:
 

Athenian200

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The first motivation is a fear of failure. Why is there a fear of failure?
The second and third one are good reasons, but one can still ask: Why is there a need to do so? What compells someone to do so?

Because I fear the negative consequences of failure could be high. That's one reason why I usually try not to engage in activities that I'm likely to fail at. Failure puts me at the mercy of others, and I'm not so sure I trust them. I guess it's just your standard mistrust/paranoia thing.

In fact, I'd say my entire worldview naturally revolves around avoiding negative consequences at any cost. Which is probably why I'm backed into a corner now.
I have a very negative image about perfectionism, since it's usually a more paralysing belief than a positive one. For a practical person, it doesn't really make sense to engage in the behaviour. I wouldn't describe wanting to do your best and being happy with the result as perfectionism though.

Eh... it probably is, and I probably need some help with it. But I'm not a practical person, I'm an Intuitive. ;)

Well... sort of. Behaviour is connected to internal cognition/perspective, so I'm not one that claims that type is based just on external actions. But yes, I'm a believer that type could change in extreme circumstances. However most people just settle with a certain pattern of thinking as it's most comfortable.

Okay, I guess I can accept that. Do you agree that we can never be absolutely sure we've perceived type correctly, though?
 

Snow Turtle

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Because I fear the negative consequences of failure could be high. In fact, I'd say my entire worldview naturally revolves around avoiding negative consequences...

What are the negative consequences usually like?
Hm. Thread derailed. But anyhow, the point is that by tracing things backwards and backwards, you'll eventually get a fundamental reason. For me my perfectionism is a result of fear of rejection which matches my feeler description.

Are You A Perfectionist?

Failure puts me at the mercy of others, and I'm not so sure I trust them. I guess it's just your standard mistrust/paranoia thing.

Fear enough. (That was a slip on my behalf...)

Eh... it probably is, and I probably need some help with it. But I'm not a practical person, I'm an Intuitive. ;)

Ohhh so evil.
Not the best thing considering that INFJs are supposedly the ones that prescribe advice in counselling services. Right, time to run you out. :angry:

Okay, I guess I can accept that. Do you agree that we can never be absolutely sure we've perceived type correctly, though?

Heck. Intellectually I don't believe we can know that the world is not an illusion as mentioned in another thread. Regarding MBTI, it's not possible but I like to think it's possible to get a reasonable accuracy that I might as well round up to 100%. Besides there are loads of stories about how people going to university or changing schools do a 180 on their personality, it's possible that their functions are just manifested differently but equally it's possible that they have gone to the extreme and changed in behaviour and thinking that you might as well type them differently. Hm, I wonder if people here have friends like that.
 

raz

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Heck. Intellectually I don't believe we can know that the world is not an illusion as mentioned in another thread. Regarding MBTI, it's not possible but I like to think it's possible to get a reasonable accuracy that I might as well round up to 100%. Besides there are loads of stories about how people going to university or changing schools do a 180 on their personality, it's possible that their functions are just manifested differently but equally it's possible that they have gone to the extreme and changed in behaviour and thinking that you might as well type them differently. Hm, I wonder if people here have friends like that.

Habits tend to do that.
 

Athenian200

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What are the negative consequences usually like?
Hm. Thread derailed. But anyhow, the point is that by tracing things backwards and backwards, you'll eventually get a fundamental reason. For me my perfectionism is a result of fear of rejection which matches my feeler description.

Are You A Perfectionist?

Well, I've never experienced them. But I fear that in the wrong situation, they could range from rejection to physical harm.

Oh, wait... that blog. I only have about half the traits. I'm a perfectionist about work that people I don't trust will see, and possibly selecting things I'm going to rely on to work, but not so much about hobbies, personal goals, or anything like that. I also don't have to "be the best," I just have to avoid failing the task to satisfy my own standards.

Fear enough. (That was a slip on my behalf...)

What was a slip?

Ohhh so evil.
Not the best thing considering that INFJs are supposedly the ones that prescribe advice in counselling services. Right, time to run you out. :angry:

Two things:

1. Presumably those are more balanced/healthy INFJs than me.

2. The advice is usually for dealing with the emotional/psychological side of issues, not the practical side of issues.


Heck. Intellectually I don't believe we can know that the world is not an illusion as mentioned in another thread. Regarding MBTI, it's not possible but I like to think it's possible to get a reasonable accuracy that I might as well round up to 100%. Besides there are loads of stories about how people going to university or changing schools do a 180 on their personality, it's possible that their functions are just manifested differently but equally it's possible that they have gone to the extreme and changed in behaviour and thinking that you might as well type them differently. Hm, I wonder if people here have friends like that.

Okay, then. I guess that works for me, then. We can't be sure of type, but let's try to get what we can out of the system anyway, and keep questioning it to see where it leads us. I like it. :)
 
G

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Sorry if I'm getting harsh and repetitive... I'm getting frustrated with everyone claiming something is there that I can't see. It's like having to listen to conversation about how helpful or aesthetic the colors are when you're colorblind.

Lots of people don't fit neatly into one category or another. I could easily be NT or NF myself, and several characteristics of both P and J also fit me.

Most every typing system is based on observation and generalizations.

If MBTI or Kiersey temperaments don't apply to you, don't worry about it. There might be other systems that fit you better. Then again, there might not be.

To that end, I'm exploring others, such as the Enneagram, Big Five, and classic temperaments.
 

simulatedworld

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Interpretation #2 is the only way to go.

MBTI is neither objective nor scientific.
 

Jeffster

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Sorry if I'm getting harsh and repetitive... I'm getting frustrated with everyone claiming something is there that I can't see. It's like having to listen to conversation about how helpful or aesthetic the colors are when you're colorblind.

If my posts came off as belittling you for not seeing what I see, then I sincerely apologize. I want to share my experiences because I think they are relevant to the topic and could be valuable. But in no way do I have a "You should get this because it's obvious to me" attitude about it. That's why I created my SP temperament thread, because several people (including you) seemed to be struggling with figuring out just who these crazy SP type people they had heard about really were, and how what was written about us was actually demonstrated in real life, not just stereotypes like you spoke of before. I think the more that people share from personal experience, the more that understanding is possible, and the less we have to rely on theoretical musings.
 

SillySapienne

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Neither do I, really.

I took a test, came out as ENFP and was astounded by how spot on the profile was.

I found this forum to be intellectually and socially pleasing, so I joined, but I didn't join and participate because of my belief in, or fascination with, typology.

Human beings are far too complex, I think, to be digested and described by any one system.

I get frustrated because I love this community yet people here, and this is a duh-observation, are obsessed with typology to a point that I find cult-ish.

I am most comfortable talking about types as a whole, i.e. ISTPs and INTJs vs. talking about the actual functions.

Whenever a thread gets too function-intense/oriented I feel as though I am reading Chinese.

I don't know.

I know I am an ENFP, I relate more than I want to accept or believe to most ENFP profiles, but there are so many people who do not fall within the 16 archetypes, yet they hear about MBTI and want to desperately fit into one of them.

Weird!

I don't know.

:/
 

poppy

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people here...are obsessed with typology to a point that I find cult-ish.

I do wonder (and this is only half-heartedly directed at you CC) if people would consider this level of interest "cult-ish" if it was a more mainstream topic...I mean people will talk about football or tv or whatever this much and more and it's never considered weird. Or perhaps because human nature is so intensely personal, and applying a system to it strikes people as clinical and abnormal?

The way I see it, most of us are just typology nerds. The same way that people are on any forum devoted to a specific subject.

OP: "What's my type threads" are pure silliness. Typing someone over the internet is about impossible. Typing people in real life is a whole 'nother beast, and I think it takes a combination of observation (and application of theory) and "vibes".

I'm more or less "orthodox" when it comes to MBTI, but only within itself as a theory. Once you start applying it to people, there are limits, as there are to anything which attempts to predict, describe, and explain human nature.

I'm sure the same has essentially been said, but I can't be bothered to go through this thread.
 

SillySapienne

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I do wonder (and this is only half-heartedly directed at you CC) if people would consider this level of interest "cult-ish" if it was a more mainstream topic...I mean people will talk about football or tv or whatever this much and more and it's never considered weird. Or perhaps because human nature is so intensely personal, and applying a system to it strikes people as clinical and abnormal?

The way I see it, most of us are just typology nerds. The same way that people are on any forum devoted to a specific subject.

OP: "What's my type threads" are pure silliness. Typing someone over the internet is about impossible. Typing people in real life is a whole 'nother beast, and I think it takes a combination of observation (and application of theory) and "vibes".

I'm more or less "orthodox" when it comes to MBTI, but only within itself as a theory. Once you start applying it to people, there are limits, as there are to anything which attempts to predict, describe, and explain human nature.

I'm sure the same has essentially been said, but I can't be bothered to go through this thread.
Great post!

:)

I don't know, I have always been fascinated with human nature and psychology, in general.

My first forum that I found solace in was a relationship forum, I loved it there but the mods hated me and I eventually got banned. :/

I definitely think there is something to typology/MBTI, but I do not put nearly as much stock into it as most of the members of this commuinty do, I think, at least.

For example, I have trouble accepting that there are as many Ns out there as is projected by this system.

I am at university, and I would say that 50% of my profs are Ns, thank god! And approximately 10% or 5% of the student body are Ns.

Even my ISTP best friend/boyfriend/perpetual lover/ex seems to exhibit far more N qualities than most people I come across. And I do come across a lot of peeps! ;)

Typing him took me forever.

For all I know he could be a very well adjusted INTP who enjoys the outdoors! :)

I thirst for connection, and for acquiring new and insightful information.

My dream world would consist of a real life forum where people would discuss personal and theoretical issues all day, everyday.

But, alas, most people seem to be interested in shit I find immensely boring.

I don't know, I digress...
 
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