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  1. #61
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post

    Well, not just intellectualism, but the whole perfectionism thing, curiosity, the desire to figure things out, etc.
    It's more about intuition with a personal vs. impersonal bent. Your intuition gives you an ability to "figure things out" intuitively, making the energy cost much lower. However, the NTs are much more likely to surpass you when it comes to using the intuition in combination with objective analysis as opposed to personal relations. It's about being a Thinker. The Thinker won't be bothered if something is void of a human aspect.


  2. #62
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    I'll try my best not to derail the thread too much but...

    a) What's the cause of perfectionism?
    In my case, I suppose J need for completion, combined with N tendency to obsess over abstractions. Ni tends to dwell on an abstraction longer than Ne, meaning we're more perfectionist than NPs. We're also more likely to try and view a situation strategically, in terms of our goals, thinking of all the ways we could reach them.

    I daresay that NFs are described with NP-ish qualities, and NTs are described with somewhat NJ-ish qualities. This could very well be why INFJs struggle to type themselves at first.
    b) Is curiosity and desire to figure out things really connected to NT or T?
    Most NTs think so. I've actually been questioning that, though if you take that away, there's nothing left to make NTs stand out. raz seems to agree:



    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    It's more about intuition with a personal vs. impersonal bent. Your intuition gives you an ability to "figure things out" intuitively, making the energy cost much lower. However, the NTs are much more likely to surpass you when it comes to using the intuition in combination with objective analysis as opposed to personal relations. It's about being a Thinker. The Thinker won't be bothered if something is void of a human aspect.
    I've never really encountered this, though I know this is how it should be theoretically. It seems as if I've been surpassed in objective analysis by some NTs, and surpassed others myself. They don't really seem more or less likely to do so than other Ns in my experience.

  3. #63
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I've never really encountered this, though I know this is how it should be theoretically. It seems as if I've been surpassed in objective analysis by some NTs, and surpassed others myself. They don't really seem more or less likely to do so than other Ns in my experience.
    Maybe you mistyped the NTs? Is the problem of you not understanding these two temperaments, Thinking vs. Feeling or Intuition?


  4. #64
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    In my case, I suppose J need for completion, combined with N tendency obsess over abstractions. Ni tends to dwell on an abstraction longer than Ne, meaning we're more perfectionist than NPs. We're also more likely to try and view a situation strategically, in terms of our goals, thinking of all the ways we could reach them.

    I daresay that NFs are described with NP-ish qualities, and NTs are described with somewhat NJ-ish qualities. This could very well be why INFJs struggle to type themselves at first.
    That doesn't really explain the cause behind the perfectionism though, only how it manifests itself and could be linked to functions etc. Essentially what has been said is "I have Ni and J therefore I'm perfectionistic".

    Then again it depends on how you view MBTI I suppose. I take on the belief that it's used only to describe our current operation, rather than that it's just inherent within us from birth.

    Most NTs think so. I've actually been questioning that, though if you take that away, there's nothing left to make NTs stand out. raz seems to agree:
    Intellectual curiosity is something that I don't think can be ascribed to a particular temperament. It's more to do with the sort of thing that one puts focus on imo and NTs usually have a different focus to NFs etc.

    For example: There are plenty of people who are interested in figuring out things, for the sake of using it. There are plenty of people who are interested in learning a physical hobby for the sake of becoming skilled. This is the same for mental activities such as chess or thinking in general.

  5. #65
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    Maybe you mistyped the NTs? Is the problem of you not understanding these two temperaments, Thinking vs. Feeling or Intuition?
    I didn't type the NTs. They were self-typed.

    I understand the two temperaments. NTs are supposed to be strategic, objective, focused on competence, etc. NFs are supposed to curious about their identity, finding what's meaningful, humanity in general, etc.

  6. #66
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    One thing that bothers me about temperament. SJ is associated with Melancholic, while NF is associated with Choleric. How many Choleric ESJs and Melancholic INFs (like me) do you know?
    Well, there's also the Interaction Styles representing the ancient temperaments. So ESTJ is very Choleric (In Charge) and INFJ is Melancholic (Chart the Course). In fact, since this represents surface social skills, they'll likely be more obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    However, I don't believe it is only Sensors who can do this. Obviously, Keirsey himself is an Intuitive type, and I have seen others such as one of my co-workers (who is INFJ) grasp the system quite well and do a bang-up job of observing these behaviors in people she encounters, especially her fellow Idealists, who she seems to now almost have a radar for.
    It seems that NFP's are the iNtuitives least likely to want to break things down, and instead want to focus on the basic or "holistic" concepts and use it for growth and self-knowledge. The difference between then and NFJ's is Ti/Fi of course.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  7. #67
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    That doesn't really explain the cause behind the perfectionism though, only how it manifests itself and could be linked to functions etc. Essentially what has been said is "I have Ni and J therefore I'm perfectionistic".
    Well, to be honest... I don't know why I'm perfectionistic. There are several motivations. One is that I don't want to be embarrassed by being caught with imperfect knowledge by others. Another is that I want any knowledge or system I'm going to rely on to any degree to be as accurate as possible. Finally, there's just a general curiosity to see how far I can push my understanding of the system, how good I can get at using it.
    Then again it depends on how you view MBTI I suppose. I take on the belief that it's used only to describe our current operation, rather than that it's just inherent within us from birth.
    Oh. So you mean it's about behavior rather than perspective? So that means type could change over time, right?
    Intellectual curiosity is something that I don't think can be ascribed to a particular temperament. It's more to do with the sort of thing that one puts focus on imo and NTs usually have a different focus to NFs etc.

    For example: There are plenty of people who are interested in figuring out things, for the sake of using it. There are plenty of people who are interested in learning a physical hobby for the sake of becoming skilled. This is the same for mental activities such as chess or thinking in general.
    Yeah, that's a good point. This may sound silly, but I'm inclined to joke that intellectual curiosity is inherent in people, but it's the defining feature of NTs, because they actually have no personality. (I'm kidding, of course)

  8. #68
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, there's also the Interaction Styles representing the ancient temperaments. So ESTJ is very Choleri (In Charge) and INFJ is Melancholic (Chart the Course). In fact, since this represents surface social skills, they'll likely be more obvious.
    Well, yeah. Interaction styles DO make sense to me (and were helpful in figuring out my type), but they were talking about Keirsey. Keirsey divides them across temperaments, and they're all saying that the temperament is the easiest thing to observe in people... which I find not to be the case.
    It seems that NFP's are the iNtuitives least likely to want to break things down, and instead want to focus on the basic concepts and use it for growth and self-knowledge. The difference between then and NFJ's is Ti/Fi of course.
    I'd agree, because I'm very interested in breaking things down and trying to figure out how they work in my head. I struggle with the limitations of application, though.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, to be honest... I don't know why I'm perfectionistic. There are several motivations. One is that I don't want to be embarrassed by being caught with imperfect knowledge by others. Another is that I want any knowledge or system I'm going to rely on to any degree to be as accurate as possible. Finally, there's just a general curiosity to see how far I can push my understanding of the system, how good I can get at using it.
    The first motivation linked fear of failure. Why is there a fear of failure?
    The second and third one are good reasons. But one can still ask: Why is there a need to do so? What compells someone to do so?

    For example: The fear of rejection is very feeling oriented.

    Oh. So you mean it's about behavior rather than perspective? So that means type could change over time, right?
    Well... sort of. Behaviour is connected to internal cognition/perspective, so I'm not one that claims that type is based just on external actions. But yes, I'm a believer that type could change in extreme circumstances. However most people just settle with a certain pattern of thinking as it's most comfortable.

    Yeah, that's a good point. This may sound silly, but I'm inclined to joke that intellectual curiosity is inherent in people, but it's the defining feature of NTs, because they actually have no personality. (I'm kidding, of course)

  10. #70
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    The first motivation is a fear of failure. Why is there a fear of failure?
    The second and third one are good reasons, but one can still ask: Why is there a need to do so? What compells someone to do so?
    Because I fear the negative consequences of failure could be high. That's one reason why I usually try not to engage in activities that I'm likely to fail at. Failure puts me at the mercy of others, and I'm not so sure I trust them. I guess it's just your standard mistrust/paranoia thing.

    In fact, I'd say my entire worldview naturally revolves around avoiding negative consequences at any cost. Which is probably why I'm backed into a corner now.
    I have a very negative image about perfectionism, since it's usually a more paralysing belief than a positive one. For a practical person, it doesn't really make sense to engage in the behaviour. I wouldn't describe wanting to do your best and being happy with the result as perfectionism though.
    Eh... it probably is, and I probably need some help with it. But I'm not a practical person, I'm an Intuitive.

    Well... sort of. Behaviour is connected to internal cognition/perspective, so I'm not one that claims that type is based just on external actions. But yes, I'm a believer that type could change in extreme circumstances. However most people just settle with a certain pattern of thinking as it's most comfortable.
    Okay, I guess I can accept that. Do you agree that we can never be absolutely sure we've perceived type correctly, though?

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