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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Oh. Think in fuzzy terms? I was afraid that's what people would say.

    That's really hard for me, I like knowing precisely what I'm dealing with. Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand this stuff...
    You probably just need an objective for using it beyond understanding the system.

  2. #52
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Oh. Think in fuzzy terms? I was afraid that's what people would say.

    That's really hard for me, I like knowing precisely what I'm dealing with, what it is and what it isn't. Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand this stuff...
    I wouldn't say you're not smart enough. I would say you're very smart for analyzing this so much.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand this stuff...
    That is a possibility worthy of consideration. But this in itself points to being smart

  4. #54
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    It's so vague it could mean almost anything. That's what I see as the problem with temperament and MBTI. It makes sense until you try to apply it, and then... the nature of details and how people really are, and what they're affected by, make it not add up. That's been my experience.

    Reality isn't doing a good job of falling in line with the abstraction correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, actually, I have a theory.

    Intuitives don't get Keirsey's system, and usually end up questioning it and looking at the theory behind it. Then they come on this forum and theorize about various ways to make it make sense, and then compare that to their experiences. The tool becomes a theoretical playground and way of making intellectual conversation rather than a serious measurement of people for us, in other words.

    Sensors usually don't need to come here, because they read Keirsey, get what he's talking about, and never question it because they "just see" what he's talking about in the environment via their senses and realize it works for them.

    What do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    I kind of like it.

    Another take could be that sensors probably just take the system as it is.. not a lot to discuss. Intuitives try to add useless things like function order, shadow functions, type pairings, and the like to it, and that has meaty, but overall fruitless, discussion that's ripe for forum content.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
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    Yep! That was rather cool. Jeffstar seems to work on a basic skeleton, rather than the specifics. Obviously most actions will have many different motivations therefore it's better to find the common factor behind each one actions for example the SJ overall will have security seeking attitudes. That exists within myself.

    You can get an impression off most people on what their temperament is. Yes, it's based on preconcieved ideas and therefore it might go against this idea that type occurs from birth. I think of external behaviours as manifestations of internal thought processes, they're both connected.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Oh, come on. "Could be" doesn't imply "is."

  6. #56
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    Oh, come on. "Could be" doesn't imply "is."
    The possability hurts me T.T

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Yep! That was rather cool. Jeffstar seems to work on a basic skeleton, rather than the specifics. Obviously most actions will have many different motivations therefore it's better to find the common factor behind each one actions for example the SJ overall will have security seeking attitudes. That exists within myself.
    Yeah, but don't IJ types in general have security seeking attitudes? It seems like ESJs are less security focused and more achievement focused, for instance.

    That's an example of why I don't get it, I suppose.
    You can get an impression off most people on what their temperament is. Yes, it's based on preconcieved ideas and therefore it might go against this idea that type occurs from birth. I think of external behaviours as manifestations of internal thought processes, they're both connected.
    Good god, I just don't see why that stupid temperament scheme is so touted. :steam: What's so special about THOSE particular combinations of letters that makes them easier to spot? I don't see it, I just don't see it...

    Maybe I just hate it because it doesn't fit my behavior well. The only thing you can tell about me from my temperament is that I'm not an SP.

    I look SJ-ish due to my IJ, NF due to my obsession with identity and self-definition, and NT due to my intellectual bent. I think temperament schemes are mapped in a way that's messier and less meaningful for INJs than any other type.

    Sorry if I'm getting harsh and repetitive... I'm getting frustrated with everyone claiming something is there that I can't see. It's like having to listen to conversation about how helpful or aesthetic the colors are when you're colorblind.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah, but don't IJ types in general have security seeking attitudes? It seems like ESJs are less security focused and more achievement focused, for instance.
    Depends on the sort of security I'd imagine.
    I don't really have a large enough INJ sample. Perhaps I'm better off just dealing with the four letters stand alone. I'm essentially claiming that Si has a distinct flavour to it, so while an ESJ might seem less security focused it'll have it there in the background.

    Perhaps I don't deal with the temperaments as much as I believe I do. Hm.

    Good god, I just don't see why that stupid temperament scheme is so touted. :steam: What's so special about THOSE particular combinations of letters that makes them easier to spot? I don't see it, I just don't see it...
    Si and Se should be easy to spot. Then again it might just be me recgonising Si within another individual. I'd like to say that I use NF and NT, but I realise I just sort of deal with N first then apply the F/T so ignore that.

    Maybe I just hate it because it doesn't fit my behavior well. The only thing you can tell about me from my temperament is that I'm not an SP.

    I look SJ-ish due to my IJ, NF due to my obsession with identity and self-definition, and NT due to my intellectual bent. I think temperament schemes are mapped in a way that's messier and less meaningful for INJs than any other type.
    Hehe. Guess that's true.
    I could screw around and say that the SJ is due to the J, F is due to the obsession with personalisation and N or Ti due to the intellectual bent. What makes you identify with the NTs anyhow, it's not like intellectualism is only specific to NTs.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Depends on the sort of security I'd imagine.
    I don't really have a large enough INJ sample. Perhaps I'm better off just dealing with the four letters stand alone. I'm essentially claiming that Si has a distinct flavour to it, so while an ESJ might seem less security focused it'll have it there in the background.

    Perhaps I don't deal with the temperaments as much as I believe I do. Hm.
    Huh. I guess that's right. I usually think of security as meaning keeping things out, keeping them from becoming difficult to predict. Not running around seeking to achieve something you don't technically need. ESJs might view achievement as a proactive kind of security, confronting the world before it confronts them, gaining more leverage over it so they have more to work with if things do go wrong. I suppose it's just hard for me to see ESJs as anything other than very well-organized, but kind of reckless, pushy, and ambitious. Then again, I suppose most E's are reckless by my standards.

    Si and Se should be easy to spot. Then again it might just be me recgonising Si within another individual. I'd like to say that I use NF and NT, but I realise I just sort of deal with N first then apply the F/T so ignore that.
    Oh, I guess that's my problem. I don't really know any Sensors, all the people I've bothered getting to know closely are Intuitive.

    But yes... If I think about it, the difference between SP and SJ is pretty hard to miss.
    Hehe. Guess that's true.
    I could screw around and say that the SJ is due to the J, F is due to the obsession with personalisation and N or Ti due to the intellectual bent. What makes you identify with the NTs anyhow, it's not like intellectualism is only specific to NTs.
    Well, not just intellectualism, but the whole perfectionism thing, curiosity, the desire to figure things out, etc.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, not just intellectualism, but the whole perfectionism thing, curiosity, the desire to figure things out, etc.
    I'll try my best not to derail the thread too much but...

    a) What's the cause of perfectionism?
    b) Is curiosity and desire to figure out things really connected to NT or T?

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