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Thread: I STILL don't understand MBTI.

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    If you think temperament is observable... I don't understand that.

    I can't tell just by looking at someone's behavior whether they're SJ, SP, NT, or NF. What on earth are you talking about?

    People believe in that stuff so strongly. Keirsey was very persuasive, apparently.
    Not looking at others behaviour. Looking at my own behaviour.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Not looking at others behaviour. Looking at my own behaviour.
    Oh.

    I guess I'm just really bad with subjective things and approximations, because I can see so many perspectives from which any type behaving in any manner could make sense, that I don't get that "feel" for which one is right. I have too many perspectives to be comfortable claiming there's a right one.

    For instance... I'm positive I'm not an SP (which is the only red flag that comes up in my mind), but without the test I couldn't tell you which of the other three I am.

    I relate to SJs because I fear disorder, defer to authority in most cases, dislike unnecessary change, and like rules to be predictable. I relate to NFs because I'm curious about the meaning of things, discovering my identity, and care about people to some extent, and I relate to NTs because I'm something of an intellectual. If I'd never taken the test or been typed by anyone else, I'd have no idea what type I was other than I and J.

    For me, it's always been easiest to observe EP, EJ, IP, and IJ in myself (and others), if anything.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Oh.

    I guess I'm just really bad with subjective things and approximations, because I can see so many perspectives from which any type behaving in any manner could make sense, that I don't get that "feel" for which one is right. I have too many perspectives to be comfortable claiming there's a right one.

    For instance... I'm positive I'm not an SP (which is the only red flag that comes up in my mind), but without the test I couldn't tell you which of the other three I am.

    I relate to SJs because I fear disorder, defer to authority in most cases, dislike unnecessary change, and like rules to be predictable. I relate to NFs because I'm curious about the meaning of things, discovering my identity, and care about people to some extent, and I relate to NTs because I'm something of an intellectual. If I'd never taken the test or been typed by anyone else, I'd have no idea what type I was other than I and J.

    For me, it's always been easiest to observe EP, EJ, IP, and IJ in myself (and others), if anything.
    I think that everybody, depending on their unique personality and objectives will have a system or combination of systems that best works for them.

  4. #34

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    Technically SP and SJ should be reasonably OKish to observe or get a feel for. There's always a flavour to Si and Se.

    Next would be EJ, EP followed by IJ for obvious reasons. IP might be a little more difficult as it could be seen as EP in some moments, or be flowing with IJ like behaviour.

    Then what remains is NT and NF which to be honest at this point I'm working on specifics four letters and stereotypes. Because there's no common function like thing.
    I'd break up it up into NTJ vs NTP and NFP vs NFJ while treating the I/E axis independantly.

    It helps that being an Fe user I'd be able to recgonise Fe within others. So that removes ENFJ and INFJ from the picture leaving NFP which for me is categorised by seemingly feelerish people but in the form of Fi.

    Leaving NTJs and NTPs which are generally so different that it's relatively OK to seperate them. Using the self as a comparison tool is useful, assuming you aren't completely off with your type.
    ______________________________________________

    The above didn't work for me when figuring out my ESFP friend, which to be honest I'm still not 100% sure of. Her christian background sort of threw me off due to her desire for organisation and structure, leading to a EFJ however her behaviour and control didn't seem to match all the time. Then there's the addition problem of her sense of style, and my mistake of usually associating quirkiness with intuition leading me to think she might have been an ENFP but over time I got a better feel and replaced it with what was more likely to be Si or Se. Ah screw it, I don't know what type she is... xP

    I don't really bother typing people unless I'm really close to them and want to know them, spending my stalker points on them.

    Edit: Hmm... If I were going to type her. An individual...

    Se ~ Si with a hefty dosage of Ne.
    Fe that may be induced by Fi due to christian upbringing.
    Ni, Ti and Te aren't really so much.

    Yes, I've functionlised her personality. *cough* >______>'
    Fe Si Ne Ti would indicate ESFJ
    Se Fi would indicate ESFP

    I'm just going to go with ESFx because I really can't tell anymore. Which goes to show, upbringing can really skew type results.

  5. #35
    Protocol Droid Array Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    I think that everybody, depending on their unique personality and objectives will have a system or combination of systems that best works for them.
    Ah, yes. I agree completely.

    Sometimes it's just that I don't see why NT, NF, SJ, and SP make so much intuitive sense to people.

    NT and NF make the most sense for the T and F dominant members (and are further biased towards Ti and Fi respectively). For the N-dominant ones, it's often far less applicable altogether. For Sensors, the descriptions seem more applicable to Extraverts than Introverts.

    I have noticed that it seems to make more sense for IPs in general. Maybe it's because dominant Ti or Fi makes these traits easier to spot...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Technically SP and SJ should be reasonably OKish to observe or get a feel for. There's always a flavour to Si and Se.
    Oh, yeah. That's true. I can always tell J from P.
    Next would be EJ, EP followed by IJ for obvious reasons. IP might be a little more difficult as it could be seen as EP in some moments, or be flowing with IJ like behaviour.

    Then what remains is NT and NF which to be honest at this point I'm working on specifics four letters and stereotypes. Because there's no common function like thing.
    I'd break up it up into NTJ vs NTP and NFP vs NFJ while treating the I/E axis independantly.

    It helps that being an Fe user I'd be able to recgonise Fe within others. So that removes ENFJ and INFJ from the picture leaving NFP which for me is categorised by seemingly feelerish people but in the form of Fi.

    Leaving NTJs and NTPs which are generally so different that it's relatively OK to seperate them. Using the self as a comparison tool is useful, assuming you aren't completely off with your type.
    I actually agree with what you said. You seem to see the "bookends" too. NTP, NTJ, NFJ, and NFP are very different. I never really got why they did J/P for Sensors, but not for Ns. J/P doesn't really seem any less obvious in us to me. I used to wonder if it seemed less obvious in us to SJs, but apparently not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    The above didn't work for me when figuring out my ESFP friend, which to be honest I'm still not 100% sure of. Her christian background sort of threw me off due to her desire for organisation and structure, leading to a EFJ however her behaviour and control didn't seem to match all the time. Then there's the addition problem of her sense of style, and my mistake of usually associating quirkiness with intuition leading me to think she might have been an ENFP but over time I got a better feel and replaced it with what was more likely to be Si or Se. Ah screw it, I don't know what type she is... xP

    I don't really bother typing people unless I'm really close to them and want to know them, spending my stalker points on them.
    If I want to type someone else, I usually just have them take the test, and go with whatever it gives me (because I'd never be able to figure it out otherwise). The way you do it sounds really difficult.

  7. #37
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    I don't particularly like Keirsey's theory. I would probably make the temperaments SP, SJ, NP, NJ. But yeah, whatever.
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    Keirsey's temperaments were basically Kretschmer's character styles, and traced, probably through Kant, to the ancient temperaments. Since classic temperament had a different matrix framework, it would not map symmetrically to the MBTI dichotomies (classic temperament was about delay and sustain, not perception).

    Then, you have Interaction Styles, which also parallel the ancient temperaments, and are EJ, IJ, EP and IP on the N side, and ET, IT, EF, IF on the S side.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  9. #39
    veteran attention whore Array Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    If you think temperament is observable... I don't understand that.

    I can't tell just by looking at someone's behavior whether they're SJ, SP, NT, or NF. What on earth are you talking about?

    People believe in that stuff so strongly. Keirsey was very persuasive, apparently.
    Have you read Keirsey's work? Because if you have, I dunno how you could ask me that question. He breaks down quite simply and very detailed what behavior makes up each temperament. You could say that you don't have any use for his groupings, but you can't say he doesn't make a solid case for the evidence of the observable behavior patterns.

    Now, obviously, we are not all robots programmed to fit one of these four profiles, or even one of 16. Obviously not every ounce of temperament description is going to apply literally to every person who fits that primary group. But the tendencies and behaviors are most definitely observable with minimal effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    I don't particularly like Keirsey's theory. I would probably make the temperaments SP, SJ, NP, NJ. But yeah, whatever.
    That's another quite valid grouping. It depends on what you are grouping by. That one obviously makes sense from a "function pair" standpoint, since the types in each group would all have a common function in the pair that makes up their individual type. Keirsey's assertion is that an INTJ has more observably in common with an INTP than an INFJ, and an ENFP has more in common with an INFP than an ENTP, just to name a few. I don't feel like I have gathered enough personal evidence to agree or disagree with that assertion based on my own observations, but I would point out that Keirsey has about six decades of dedicated people-watching more than I do, so I'm inclined to defer to his experience, despite remaining skeptical as I am about any system of grouping people into categories.
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  10. #40
    Protocol Droid Array Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Have you read Keirsey's work? Because if you have, I dunno how you could ask me that question. He breaks down quite simply and very detailed what behavior makes up each temperament. You could say that you don't have any use for his groupings, but you can't say he doesn't make a solid case for the evidence of the observable behavior patterns.

    Now, obviously, we are not all robots programmed to fit one of these four profiles, or even one of 16. Obviously not every ounce of temperament description is going to apply literally to every person who fits that primary group. But the tendencies and behaviors are most definitely observable with minimal effort.
    I have read it. It was the first book on it I ever read, and I've been over it several times. But I don't get it, and can't see those traits in people. I also think the stereotypes are ridiculously exaggerated in it.

    Maybe it's because my Se sucks, and I'm not good at observing behavior in terms of patterns. Who knows?

    The thing is, I guess I haven't had my experience match up well with that. I've noticed, for instance, that I tend to (somewhat superficially) resemble and relate to xNTPs and xNFJs more, and xNFPs and xNTJs resemble and relate to each other more. I'm seeing it break down along N+Ti/Fe and N+Fi/Te lines (and sometimes along NJ and NP lines). I don't see the big theoretical gap supposedly formed right between NT and NF. It really only forms when NTs are deliberately trying to act apathetic, insensitive, and super-intellectual as something of a joke, and then it's very superficial and doesn't last. If it forms at all, it's between INTP, ENTJ, INFP and ENFJ, the T/F dominant ones who would have had a conflict anyway.


    That's another quite valid grouping. It depends on what you are grouping by. That one obviously makes sense from a "function pair" standpoint, since the types in each group would all have a common function in the pair that makes up their individual type. Keirsey's assertion is that an INTJ has more observably in common with an INTP than an INFJ, and an ENFP has more in common with an INFP than an ENTP, just to name a few. I don't feel like I have gathered enough personal evidence to agree or disagree with that assertion based on my own observations, but I would point out that Keirsey has about six decades of dedicated people-watching more than I do, so I'm inclined to defer to his experience, despite remaining skeptical as I am about any system of grouping people into categories.
    I'm beginning to think that his system might just work better for Sensors, honestly.

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