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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Just to clarify when I refer to "true type", I'm referring to how you would prefer to be when not being influenced by external factors, of course external factors probably always have some influence but we can usually get a good idea of how we might like to be if there were no such thing as societal pressure/expectations etc. It is an assumption that we have an innate preference, but that we do seems to make sense to me. In an ideal world, how would you act? What would you do? I know as a guy I act a heck of a lot more "T" in day to day interactions than I would if I was stuck on a deserted island.
    I would make friends. Then we would spend time talking, doing things we enjoyed, introducing each other to each other's friends, all associating more with the ones we liked, then just keeping up the cycle. We'd stay in touch, meet occasionally, etc, but you wouldn't be thought any less of if you forgot once in a while. Everyone would know each other and be comfortable. There wouldn't be many expectations, or a lot of pressure to be perfect. We'd be interested in helping or comforting each other if anyone needed it.

    This is clearly a fantasy, though. I (and most other people) are far too self-conscious for it to ever be like this, and (possibly in part because of that), I find myself drained around other people.

    Now, how would I prefer to act alone? I suppose I'd like to do mostly what I do now, but with more freedom. Be able to get any book I'm interested in, purchase and donate to things online freely, study various topics, come up with ideas about them, and analyze various things.

  2. #22
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    This is clearly a fantasy, though. I (and most other people) are far too self-conscious for it to ever be like this, and (possibly in part because of that), I find myself drained around other people.
    Interesting, because we have to try and sift through nature and nuture, had your every natural inclination been encouraged from childhood perhaps you wouldn't feel so self concious and you may have developed as more extraverted?

    I interpret MBTI as; how would you prefer to act? and how would you prefer to be treated? Not how do you act and how are you treated. If I really want to get to know someone I'm not interested in what career that person happens to have, if I want insight, I want to know what career they would prefer to have, what are their dreams? To me that is the really interesting stuff, the important stuff.

    If someone acts J because the world reacts well to that but they don't feel fulfilled/self-actualised acting that way, then I'm more interested in what would really make them fulfilled, not how they actually act due to circumstance.

    Yet again I'm not sure I have any point to this.
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  3. #23
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    It is apparent what they are trying to get at with the theory but I doubt that they hit a bullseye by any stretch of the imagination. The theory's only true value is what you can personally do with it.

  4. #24
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Thanks. It's just hard not to feel stupid when so many other people seem to have it figured out.
    This is what I like most about you. You take the time to think about these things and actually question them. I go back and forth with it. Sometimes it seems compelling and other times it makes almost no sense to me either. I wonder if there is somehow more to it than I've encountered.

    The primary criticism of MBTI as a system is its limitations for measurement. It lacks "validity" because of this. I think you are troubled by the limitation of the system itself. It helps me to think of it as a system of approximation. There are no hard edges. It constructs a few poles of cognitive processing that seem fundamental to how people might think. It is a more compelling system than any others I have encountered.

    I see it primarily as a placeholder until something more scientific and measurable comes along. The study of cognitive processing should be aligned with neurology and the use of brain imagining. There should be some way of relating a theory of how the brain functions to the actual hardware in our heads. As far as I know MBTI does not attempt this.

    The biggest problem I see with MBTI is that people appear quite driven to give it hard boundaries and that is not compatible with the theory as a system. People either use the textbook descriptions which are just written by a person, albeit one who has studied the theory more than the average person. More often people think of their ESFJ mother, ESTP employer, INTP roommate, or INFJ ex and then extrapolate those specifics to apply to the entire category. Sometime it might be interesting to catalog all the stereotypes presented on these forums just to enjoy the inherent ironies that result in every category.
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  5. #25
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    This is what I like most about you. You take the time to think about these things and actually question them. I go back and forth with it. Sometimes it seems compelling and other times it makes almost no sense to me either. I wonder if there is somehow more to it than I've encountered.
    I'm always questioning myself. That's one reason it can be hard for me to move forward in life. I'm almost as bad as an INTP (though that's another stereotype).

    The only way I can make sense of it is to assume that it means whatever you think it means, and use it primarily as a way of trying to guess why someone isn't understanding your perspective or vice-versa.

    Temperament (at least NT, NF, SJ, SP) is one concept I wish I'd never been introduced to, honestly. It makes even less sense than the system itself, but people use it more widely, and it infringes on your mind unwillingly. Go figure.
    The primary criticism of MBTI as a system is its limitations for measurement. It lacks "validity" because of this. I think you are troubled by the limitation of the system itself. It helps me to think of it as a system of approximation. There are no hard edges. It constructs a few poles of cognitive processing that seem fundamental to how people might think. It is a more compelling system than any others I have encountered.

    I see it primarily as a placeholder until something more scientific and measurable comes along. The study of cognitive processing should be aligned with neurology and the use of brain imagining. There should be some way of relating a theory of how the brain functions to the actual hardware in our heads. As far as I know MBTI does not attempt this.
    I suppose that's what bothers me, though. I guess I don't know how to accept an approximation properly, because it's so vague that it's not describing anything, yet people will tell you "that trait has nothing to do with being X," which is technically true because the theory is too vague to make such an assertion, but they can't suggest what trait does. And if no traits are allowed to suggest anything, then how can we seriously discuss or question someone's type? All we can do (unless there's a method I've been missing) is agree with whatever they feel they are, and maybe throw the most currently agreed upon stereotypes in forum culture around as a half-joking way of questioning it.

    The biggest problem I see with MBTI is that people appear quite driven to give it hard boundaries and that is not compatible with the theory as a system. People either use the textbook descriptions which are just written by a person, albeit one who has studied the theory more than the average person. More often people think of their ESFJ mother, ESTP employer, INTP roommate, or INFJ ex and then extrapolate those specifics to apply to the entire category. Sometime it might be interesting to catalog all the stereotypes presented on these forums just to enjoy the inherent ironies that result in every category.
    Oh, yes, that would be quite funny. The hyper-religious SFJ, the selfish/hedonistic STP, the libertarian NTJ, etc. I know they're irrational, but I'm sure they're in the collective mindset here, somehow.

  6. #26
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Temperament (at least NT, NF, SJ, SP) is one concept I wish I'd never been introduced to, honestly. It makes even less sense than the system itself, but people use it more widely, and it infringes on your mind unwillingly. Go figure.
    Nah. It actually makes the MOST sense, because it's something you can actually observe, rather than pure speculation about what might possibly be occurring inside someone's brain.
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  7. #27

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    Of all the theories, temperament seems to be the most useful. Like Jeffster said, because it's linked to observable behaviour.

  8. #28
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Functions are the only usefull and applicable thing in the hole model. And that is a uniform concept that is hard to apply to personalities, but usefull when it comes to internal processes and information perception.

    The rest is just variety, within variety, with variety, simming in the never endless pool of obscure arbitrary diasporas.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  9. #29
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I would make friends. Then we would spend time talking, doing things we enjoyed, introducing each other to each other's friends, all associating more with the ones we liked, then just keeping up the cycle. We'd stay in touch, meet occasionally, etc, but you wouldn't be thought any less of if you forgot once in a while. Everyone would know each other and be comfortable. There wouldn't be many expectations, or a lot of pressure to be perfect. We'd be interested in helping or comforting each other if anyone needed it.

    This is clearly a fantasy, though. I (and most other people) are far too self-conscious for it to ever be like this, and (possibly in part because of that), I find myself drained around other people.

    Now, how would I prefer to act alone? I suppose I'd like to do mostly what I do now, but with more freedom. Be able to get any book I'm interested in, purchase and donate to things online freely, study various topics, come up with ideas about them, and analyze various things.
    When I think about what I'd want if I had my way...

    I'd want a business-oriented job that was stable and reliable. I'd want it to require an executive style outlook. At work, seeing the same people every day wouldn't bother me as long as they were respectful and low key. I'd want one close guy friend and a girlfriend/wife that I shared a very intimate connection with that was also low key. I'd likely spend a lot of time contributing to work and making sure that my girlfriend feels appreciated. My spare time would likely be consumed with a computer building hobby, working out and playing computer games.

    Heh. Is that ISTJ enough? Right now, my introversion is semi on the backburner. I've spent the last few years trying to teach myself how to create an extraverted identity. Basically, I've got to get out of my shell before I can be comfortable going into my shell periodically.


  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Nah. It actually makes the MOST sense, because it's something you can actually observe, rather than pure speculation about what might possibly be occurring inside someone's brain.
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Of all the theories, temperament seems to be the most useful. Like Jeffster said, because it's linked to observable behaviour.
    If you think temperament is observable... I don't understand that.

    I can't tell just by looking at someone's behavior whether they're SJ, SP, NT, or NF. What on earth are you talking about?

    People believe in that stuff so strongly. Keirsey was very persuasive, apparently.

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