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  1. #51
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Who pissed in cloud's cereal?

    What's with the vitriol?

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyhhFzE5O5U"]This thread...[/YOUTUBE]
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  2. #52
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    SW--

    You were the one who mistook my Te demands for accuracy, to mean I preferred S.
    So who are you to point your finger at anyone else for being obtuse?

    This is not the first time I have seen you make hypocritical comments.
    Your comments are starting to resemble Sentura's.
    Jesus Christ.
    I'd be more patient with someone who calmly discusses/asks for information than with someone who simply repeats the same tired sarcasm without really trying to absorb new information.

    Adaptation is key. If I misread you as an S, it was based on the limited information of my first discussion with you, and I'll use that mistake along with newer information to amend my position. This only serves as evidence that MBTI labels require a lot of data over a long period before they'll serve any real purpose.

    I never really paid any attention to your posts before talking to you, but since my one discussion with you, I've made more of an effort to do so, and I see where my mistake was. Point noted.

    Difference is, I was making a genuine attempt to exchange ideas, but for 95% of that conversation you were being deliberately obnoxious with your haughty attitude, and I was not.

    I made an attempt to explain the idea to Cloud, but incidentally his string of posts here reminded me of my recent conversation with you.

    Frankly it's a little surprising that an ENTJ couldn't pick up on this, but your insistence that a 51% N ENTJ and a 100% N ENTJ don't belong in the same category utterly misses the point because the categories are arbitrarily defined. There *are* common behavioral threads, and it takes a lot of patient searching for abstract externalized patterns to find them.

    So really, just like Cloud in this case here, what you're saying reduces to, "I'm not capable of perceiving the similar behavioral patterns between these two people on a level that makes this system useful for completing my goals."

    And really, that's fair enough--if MBTI doesn't help you complete your goals, don't use it. But don't assume that it can't provide any real use to anyone just because your goal-oriented pattern perception is comparatively weak.

    Incidentally, this is just what the OP is about--STP and NTJ can sometimes exhibit very similar behavior in situations like this, just for different reasons--the STP criticism is that the pattern is not there and therefore serves no concrete purpose, while yours would be that the pattern is not worth looking for because it's an inefficient use of time. (This also illustrates the folly of attempting to attach exact functions to the behaviors of others with any real degree of certainty--often the true motivation is masked by surface behavior that is similar to another type.)

    I see where you're coming from, but you're making a mistake by assuming that the similarities don't exist just because you don't see them. My guess as to the culprit would be weak Ne, but I don't really know for sure--such claims are speculative at best. I may change my mind again as more information becomes available; we'll see.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #53
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    I think they get mistaken because they are both very physical types.

    ESTPs are all about doing what they want with their bodys whereas ENTJs are all about bending they world to there ideas. Becasue ENTJs are so physical i think Te could easily be very like Se in a lot of situations. Especially Se supported by Ti. Basically Te can look like Se + Ti.

    There is also the social status point that i think cloud pointed to. ESTPs like to be popular and cool and show how good they are. ENTJs like to do this as well but not just for the sake of it like ESTPs. ENTJs do it so as to get power over people.

    So why do ESTJ and ENTP never get confused with them?

    Well ESTJ is more occupied with social correctness alot and generally don't seem to have the subtly of the ENTJ in gaining control, as they are more concerned with everyone else doing what society needs them to do than what they personally want. They are therefor less hedonistic than the ESTP and ENTJ which is an obvious difference (i argue that ENTJ are long term hedonistics whereas ESTP are short term ones).

    So why does the ENTP never get mistaken as often? Ne is my answer. ENTPs how there abstractness more than any other type from what i've seen (with the possible exception of an ENFP). ENTJs don't show Ni as much due to it being secondary and introverted so aren't as clearly abstract so don't get mistaken for ENTPs often. Se is different in a lot of ways from Ne as well. For example an ENTP seems to love being around the outsiders as they find them interesting. An ESTP on the other hand wouldn't be seen dead with someone who would make them seem uncool. Therefor an ENTP wouldn't get mistken for an ESTP or ENTJ.
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

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    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  4. #54
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Frankly it's a little surprising that an ENTJ couldn't pick up on this, but your insistence that a 51% N ENTJ and a 100% N ENTJ don't belong in the same category utterly misses the point because the categories are arbitrarily defined. There *are* common behavioral threads, and it takes a lot of patient searching for abstract externalized patterns to find them.
    If you think my criticism of MBTI regarding the 100/51 example is odd,
    it's one of the top criticisms of all professionals in typology who take issue with MBTI.
    I am not a lone dissenter.

    Even MBTI realized the err of their ways,
    and updated their types to reflect subtypes within a type.
    So if I saw the problem and they saw the same problem,
    what's your excuse?

    But don't assume that it can't provide any real use to anyone just because your goal-oriented pattern perception is comparatively weak.
    We've been through this.
    You already admitted how you are using MBTI,
    isn't even really MBTI at all.
    There's an entire underlying function order that you totally ignore.

    MBTI is as "useful" and generalized as Sun sign astrology.
    Chew on that awhile.


    I see where you're coming from, but you're making a mistake by assuming that the similarities don't exist just because you don't see them. My guess as to the culprit would be weak Ne, but I don't really know for sure. I may change my mind again as more information becomes available; we'll see.
    Now you are talking functions?
    Weeks ago you basically gave the middle finger to functions.
    And FWIW, I do see similarities, but I also see very big differences.
    Each person could have their own highly individualized function order.
    I contend, it's more than likely a very different order than MBTI allows.

  5. #55
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    If you think my criticism of MBTI regarding the 100/51 example is odd,
    it's one of the top criticisms of all professionals in typology who take issue with MBTI.
    I am not a lone dissenter.

    Even MBTI realized the err of their ways,
    and updated their types to reflect subtypes within a type.
    So if I saw the problem and they saw the same problem,
    what's your excuse?
    Appeals to authority aside, do you have any actual backing for that position besides "I dunno they seem real different to me"?

    Your criticism is still logically invalid because the types are arbitrarily defined. Once again you want more precision than such a loose label can offer, and you've resurrected the same tired corpse of that straw man so many times now that I've grown tired of addressing it.

    Being "N" just means that you prefer to use iNtuition more often than Sensing. There's no implied guarantee that this label will consistently place people together who happen to fit your arbitrary standards of congruity, but carry on pretending that MBTI claims to live up to this unrealistic standard if it gets you off. There's a huge margin of error when working with such Ne-heavy systems and you don't like that because you're outrageously J.

    If using Sensing most often is 0 and using iNtuition most often is 100, anyone who falls on the spectrum from 51-100 is categorized as an N, arbitrarily. You are not actually taking issue with the concepts of Sensing or iNtution here, just with the grouping because, according to you, there are not enough common behavioral threads between a 51% N ENTJ and a 100% N ENTJ to support a connection that is in any way useful or meaningful.

    And it's because, in characteristic ExTJ fashion, you're trying to apply deductive reasoning to a long-term situation that requires the inductive kind. Of course you don't see the connections; you're staring up at the clouds and ignoring any shapes that don't fit the precise proportions of real objects.




    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar
    We've been through this.
    You already admitted how you are using MBTI,
    isn't even really MBTI at all.
    There's an entire underlying function order that you totally ignore.

    MBTI is as "useful" and generalized as Sun sign astrology.
    Chew on that awhile.
    I don't really care to address your semantic concerns. I obviously don't think precise function orders apply to real people; the functions are useful for further understanding the archetypes, which no one fits perfectly. It's all a question of which description you fall closest to, not which one you fit exactly. Once again they're just general trends observed over time.

    For the love of God, are you really so task-oriented that you don't understand the concept of inductive reasoning at all? You can't use MBTI for deductive reasoning problems because it works with fundamentally incomplete information, so no, it will not consistently provide scientifically verifiable data in any single particular case.

    It's still hilarious to me that you brought up poker because it's apparent that you don't understand inductive reasoning/considering information as probability clouds. You're asking me to prove that loose aggressive players exist and then denying that the concept possesses any real utility because there's no precise falsifiable scientific definition of exactly what characterizes a loose aggressive player, and it's making you dreadfully myopic.

    Learn to think inductively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar
    Now you are talking functions?
    Weeks ago you basically gave the middle finger to functions.
    And FWIW, I do see similarities, but I also see very big differences.
    Each person could have their own highly individualized function order.
    I contend, it's more than likely a very different order than MBTI allows.
    Functions are one interpretation from which to draw possible influence on my personal overall typology theory. They're useful, I've found, for examining one's own strengths and weaknesses, and they can help understand another's experience somewhat when that person explains firsthand which functions s/he is using.

    I know you tend to find it more useful to pick whichever interpretation produces hard results and go with it, but I prefer considering as many different interpretations as possible to approximate objective certainty as closely as possible...though never completely. That "never completely" part annoys NTJs, so they don't bother searching for objective truth without an ulterior motive much at all--fair enough.

    But I like exploration for its own sake.

    At first the inability to truly know another's subjective experience led me to the conclusion that functional theory is just garbage, but I've since found that it does have certain limited uses.

    Unfortunately, that doesn't stop tons and tons of people from misusing it by assuming they know exactly which functions are responsible for particular behaviors in others. Assuming that complex human behavioral interactions can be explained by single cognitive functions working alone is too simplistic--assuming these "drives" have even been mapped and labeled accurately, real interactions would have to be caused by numerous functions working simultaneously in varying strengths at all times.

    This is why my typology system (call it whatever you want) examines only surface behaviors and does not encompass any sort of psychoanalysis.

    I'm not the first person, by the way, to use surface-behavior-only adaptations of MBTI. I was introduced to the topic via a book that took this interpretation and perhaps this has something to do with why I see it as the obvious common sense interpretation. We frankly don't really care if we're not being faithful to the original Jung or MBTI or wtfever; we've just appropriated their terminology for a far more useful system.

    You're probably right that functional orders can be much different than the basic 16 molds. That's why I use four independent sliding scales instead. I hereby disown iron-clad function order MBTI, you happy now?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #56
    Member cheerful-pessimist's Avatar
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    Well, my best friend is an ESTP, and he's generally more manipulative than I am when he wants something. I try to use logic to convince people of things, and like I said before, he tends to try and discreetly manipulate people into believing or doing something. I don't know if that's true of every ESTP or ENTJ, but that's two of the main differences I see with us.
    "Yet, the right act
    Is less, far less, than the right-thinking mind.
    Seek refuge in thy soul; have there thy heaven!"

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerful-pessimist View Post
    Well, my best friend is an ESTP, and he's generally more manipulative than I am when he wants something. I try to use logic to convince people of things, and like I said before, he tends to try and discreetly manipulate people into believing or doing something. I don't know if that's true of every ESTP or ENTJ, but that's two of the main differences I see with us.
    They are both thinking types and use logic

    being an SP over an NJ doesn't suddenly make you manipulative

    Oh I use my senses
    Oh I'm adaptable
    Oh I suddenly feel like manipulating you now because of this

    No.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Appeals to authority aside, do you have any actual backing for that position besides "I dunno they seem real different to me"?
    There's nothing worse than someone who purposely misquotes people for their own twisted reasons.
    Get it straight.


    Your criticism is still logically invalid because the types are arbitrarily defined.
    Do you think I give a shit what is solely logical?
    Logic has no vision. It's limited.

    If every asshole on the earth stuck to what is "logical,"
    there would be no innovation. Period.
    The fact is, most things are not logical.

    Life is not logical.
    People are not logical.
    GENIUS IS NOT LOGICAL.
    How can you not get that?
    How old are you?
    Wet behind the ears in your early 20's?

    To blaze a trail and become successful, we don't ask:
    What's logical? That's ordinary.
    Dare to go BEYOND common logic,
    and achieve the extraordinary.

    There's a huge margin of error when working with such Ne-heavy systems and you don't like that because you're outrageously J.
    Now you are going to bash J's.
    Come on you can do better than that, rookie.

    "Ne-heavy systems." Hubris of the young.

    I'll fill you in on a little "secret" that most people already know:
    It isn't uncommon for people to have high Ne and Ni.
    DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
    It's still hilarious to me that you brought up poker
    I've made more money playing poker in Vegas,
    than you have at your job, rookie.
    Look, this is trivial shit.

    Learn to think inductively.
    Learn to think. Period.

    I'm going to cut this off here.
    Talking this bullshit with you again, is wasting my time.
    I have but one piece of advice:

    Stop acting like you have a goal-oriented mind.
    At some point in your life, you will have to shit--
    Or get off the pot.

    DO something, and quit talking about it.
    DO something, and quit arguing logic.
    DO something, and quit procrastinating.
    DO anything, but do SOMETHING.

    Case closed.

  9. #59
    Member cheerful-pessimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    being an SP over an NJ doesn't suddenly make you manipulative

    Oh I use my senses
    Oh I'm adaptable
    Oh I suddenly feel like manipulating you now because of this

    No.
    That's why I said I wasn't sure whether or not it was true of every ESTP.
    I also tend to be emotionally aloof from the argument and not take personal offense to things said. And again, whether or not that's true for every ENTJ is beyond me.
    "Yet, the right act
    Is less, far less, than the right-thinking mind.
    Seek refuge in thy soul; have there thy heaven!"

  10. #60
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Case closed.
    Uh huh, "Grr I'm an angry curmudgeon and I'm smarter than everyone to the point that being here is beneath me...yet I still am!" I've heard that one before, brah.

    If you'd rather keep running your trap about how smart you are than actually DO SOMETHING to prove it, maybe you should take your own advice.

    And your hilarious total failure to grasp any of these concepts (other than that you're totally way too smart for everyone, of course) tells me there's a good chance you're lying about all the "money you've made in Vegas playing poker." Really? What stakes/games? What rake percentage was involved, and what kind of return did you average over how many sessions? I assume a serious player has records of his session results.

    Oh please, if you can't conceptualize the idea of incomplete labels that change over time with new data, you'd be one lousy fucking poker player. Seriously, let's play heads up online some time. I assume a player of YOUR virtuosity has accounts on every major site, right? I've devoted a good amount of time to studying that game and I've made some pretty good side income on it. I'd *love* to see some of the brilliant play that your Vegas-cash-game-winning understanding is producing.

    Honestly, Nocap does the whole "angry pretentious asshole" act much more convincingly.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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