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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    I've noticed that too - ENTJs often behave like ESTPs in social situations.

    The reason I say ENTJs behaving as ESTPs instead of ESTPs behaving as ENTJs, is because I am convinced that ENTJs emulate ESTPs, because they view ESTPs behavior as "socially successful".

    ESTPs (males) view of power is often directly related to being virile and masculine. That's why probably the biggest insult to an ESTP man is to be called gay since in our society it implies being effeminate (i.e. physically weak).

    ENTJs have a more encompassing view of power and success than ESTPs.
    They don't just want physical prowess - they also want social prowess, intellectual prowess, financial prowess, etc. That's why ENTJs try to emulate different types for different reasons. They see ESTPs as being socially successful, so they act like them in social situations. When talking about intellectual topics, ENTJs will often go into introverted NT mode, because they view INTs as the most intellectually sound. In business they try to act like ENTPs (i.e. opportunistic risk takers), etc etc.

    That's my theory anyway.
    Edgar: Thats an interesting theory.

    From my experience, though, the ESTP emulation in social situations held true when I was somewhat immature, and even then it was not 100% so.

    The reason being, (apologies in advance to some), ESTPs bullsh*t far too much for an ENTJ tolerance level. After a while, you realize that their social success is often built on very shaky foundations, and it does not fit the ENTJ preference for self-congruence, authenticity and general 'solidness'.

    ---

    Cheat sheet - how do you distinguish between an ENTJ and ESTP?

    Answer: SIMPLE!

    1. ESTPs have a signature attribute: they are 'always on the go'. Sometimes annoyingly so. Some will even rock on their toes, stand sideways, in a 'walking away' posture, tap their feet, play with their cellphones etc. WHILE interacting with you. They strongly believe in the maxim 'he who travels fastest, travels alone'. ENTJs, on the other hand, once committed, will be intensively engaged.

    2. ESTPs are extremely interested in leveraging themselves through people in the SHORT term. ENTJs, are also interested in leveraging themselves through people, but in the LONG term - which is why we focus a lot more on aligning incentives and team building. Loyalty matters to them, and they are loyal themselves. ESTPs, on the other hand, are much more focussed on looking out for #1, especially in the here and now.

    3. ESTP (guys) are more 'slick' and charming on 1st impressions. Both ENTJs and ESTPs can come across as cocky, but the ENTJ will prefer to be cocky only if he believes he has earned it. The ESTP on the other hand, is the 'Promoter', and his world revolves around convincing the world about how amazing his life is. Most people believe him, at least initially.

    4. ESTPs are much more hot blooded than ENTJs.

    5. Both ESTPs and ENTJs are generally very sharp, but ESTPs are better in tactical situations, and ENTJs are better in strategic situations.

    6. ESTPs are likely to be significantly better at sports than ENTJs.

    7. ESTPs find it much easier to have fun than ENTJs, and probably are more fun.
    Last edited by ComplexMango; 05-31-2009 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Added point 7
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The only reason you don't suck ENTJ dicks is, you own a horse.
    You must be the only man alive, with stretch marks around his mouth.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    But always for P vs J, I ask myself if someone is trying to 'direct' the environment (J), rather than just influence it (P).
    INFJs direct the environment instead of influencing it?
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  4. #44
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Why are they the same?
    It's just a really weak attempt at sarcasm humor.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #45
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    So is it the similarity between TJ and SP?

    anyone have strong TJs (xxTJ) can come across as SPs? why just entj, why not other TJ types.

    or NJ and SP? I really don't seek the link

    Here is my chart

    TJ SP?
    NJ SP?
    TP FJ?
    EP FJ?
    NP FJ?
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  6. #46
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    So is it the similarity between TJ and SP?

    anyone have strong TJs (xxTJ) can come across as SPs? why just entj, why not other TJ types.

    or NJ and SP? I really don't seek the link

    Here is my chart

    TJ SP?
    NJ SP?
    TP FJ?
    EP FJ?
    NP FJ?
    No, the similarity is due to E and T. TJs can come across as SPs under certain conditions--a majority of TJs are Ss already.

    Since MBTI types are only averages of behavioral preferences over time, any type can theoretically appear similar to any other type in any given single situation--such as the single, particular situation I'm discussing at the moment.

    The argument you've implied through this string of meaningless sarcastic posts is weak.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #47
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No, the similarity is due to E and T. TJs can come across as SPs under certain conditions--a majority of TJs are Ss already.

    Since MBTI types are only averages of behavioral preferences over time, any type can theoretically appear similar to any other type in any given single situation--such as the single, particular situation I'm discussing at the moment.

    The argument you've implied through this string of meaningless sarcastic posts is weak.
    What are you saying? ever since when did TJ =SP? does that mean TP=FJs?
    That makes no sense.

    As for E and T, why don't you say ESTJ are like ENTPs?
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexMango View Post
    Edgar: Thats an interesting theory.

    From my experience, though, the ESTP emulation in social situations held true when I was somewhat immature, and even then it was not 100% so.

    The reason being, (apologies in advance to some), ESTPs bullsh*t far too much for an ENTJ tolerance level. After a while, you realize that their social success is often built on very shaky foundations, and it does not fit the ENTJ preference for self-congruence, authenticity and general 'solidness'.

    ---

    Cheat sheet - how do you distinguish between an ENTJ and ESTP?

    Answer: SIMPLE!

    1. ESTPs have a signature attribute: they are 'always on the go'. Sometimes annoyingly so. Some will even rock on their toes, stand sideways, in a 'walking away' posture, tap their feet, play with their cellphones etc. WHILE interacting with you. They strongly believe in the maxim 'he who travels fastest, travels alone'. ENTJs, on the other hand, once committed, will be intensively engaged.

    2. ESTPs are extremely interested in leveraging themselves through people in the SHORT term. ENTJs, are also interested in leveraging themselves through people, but in the LONG term - which is why we focus a lot more on aligning incentives and team building. Loyalty matters to them, and they are loyal themselves. ESTPs, on the other hand, are much more focussed on looking out for #1, especially in the here and now.

    3. ESTP (guys) are more 'slick' and charming on 1st impressions. Both ENTJs and ESTPs can come across as cocky, but the ENTJ will prefer to be cocky only if he believes he has earned it. The ESTP on the other hand, is the 'Promoter', and his world revolves around convincing the world about how amazing his life is. Most people believe him, at least initially.

    4. ESTPs are much more hot blooded than ENTJs.

    5. Both ESTPs and ENTJs are generally very sharp, but ESTPs are better in tactical situations, and ENTJs are better in strategic situations.

    6. ESTPs are likely to be significantly better at sports than ENTJs.

    7. ESTPs find it much easier to have fun than ENTJs, and probably are more fun.
    This is actually a really good post

    I laughed at the bit about us tossing our cell phone... why the hell do all us ESTPs do this? hahaha

    I'm always wondering when mine will break, always throwing up up in the air catching it, spinning it around in my fingers etc

    Loyality matters to both these types but ESTPs do concentrate more on the here and now loyalities rather than building them slowly... hard to explain but something like that

  9. #49
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    What are you saying? ever since when did TJ =SP? does that mean TP=FJs?
    That makes no sense.

    As for E and T, why don't you say ESTJ are like ENTPs?
    ESTJs are like ENTPs in some ways; their behaviors just don't happen to correspond in ways where they use very similar tactics in very many behavioral situations.

    But now that you've proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that you've missed the point by about 10 miles and are most likely incapable of grasping obvious differences in context, I don't really feel it necessary to continue explaining to you.

    So yes, ENFJs are exactly the same as ENTPs. Congrats, you've got it all figured out. Write a book.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #50
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    SW--

    You were the one who mistook my Te demands for accuracy, to mean I preferred S.
    So who are you to point your finger at anyone else for being obtuse?

    This is not the first time I have seen you make hypocritical comments.
    Your comments are starting to resemble Sentura's.
    Jesus Christ.

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