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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Are you asserting that "Please Understand Me II" is biased in a way that makes "Ns" out to be superior to "Ss?" If so, can you cite specific examples of this? Because I'm an "S" and I didn't find it that way at all.
    I should say that I love PUMII because it introduced me to type and I still think temperament theory is the most helpful and useful thing in typology.

    The Temperament Talk group has been going over the bias and whatnot for years, although obviously they love the theory and have much respect for the book. I don't have the book in front of me so if you're really interested you can go there and do a search for "bias" or "Keirsey bias".

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    From what I can remember, the NF description just seems better than all of the others and makes people, especially Feelers, want to identify as NF even when they aren't. For example, the NFs are the only ones Keirsey describes as caring deeply about their relationships with people (as a primary concern). Yet he presents SP as the opposite of NF, as the tactical-minded users and manipulators of tools including people. So an ISFP teacher who cares deeply about relationships and whose relationships and values are of primary importance may not see themselves in that description, even if the overall pattern fits.

    And from my personal memories, the SJ section of the book, while accurate at its most basic levels, is rather horribly dour and sour in tone. I refuse to read it or recommend it to anyone else. Keirsey clearly doesn't like SJs and that's okay, because he got the basics right, but it's hard reading. The tone would not make anyone want to identify as SJ, even if the conclusion seems inescapable. Please Understand Me, the original, was much less biased.

    I prefer Linda Berens Temperament book.

  2. #52
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladyinspring View Post
    From what I can remember, the NF description just seems better than all of the others and makes people, especially Feelers, want to identify as NF even when they aren't.
    Hmmm..interesting. I'm a very strong "Feeler" and I didn't see it that way at all. If anything, when I read that, I want to give the Idealists a hug because it seems like they have a tremendous burden to carry, with that whole "eternal search for Self" thing, and the struggle with authenticity. It made me glad that I'm not saddled with those feelings, and was actually the final step for convincing me that there's no way I could be an NF. So, for me it had the total opposite effect, despite my believing that many NF causes are noble and admirable, it didn't make me want to BE one.

    And from my personal memories, the SJ section of the book, while accurate at its most basic levels, is rather horribly dour and sour in tone. I refuse to read it or recommend it to anyone else. Keirsey clearly doesn't like SJs and that's okay, because he got the basics right, but it's hard reading. The tone would not make anyone want to identify as SJ, even if the conclusion seems inescapable.
    Again, it would be nice to have some specific examples, though I can see how some of the section on "Guardians" could be interpreted this way. I think Keirsey makes a great effort, though, to point out that he believes it's a good thing there are so many SJs, because there are many things they do that others take for granted. He expands on this in his latest book, "Brains and Careers" when he goes into more detail about all the "logistical saving" that most people don't think about like water storage, electrical power, bridges being properly constructed, and many more, basically a positive view of the folks who are the "glue of society" holding things together, and making the exploits of the other temperaments possible.

    The only sections of PUMII where I thought he was a little too narrow with the Guardians was the one on mating and the one on children, because he makes it sound like all SJs are kind of "goody-goody" and never make trouble or hastily jump into relationships, which obviously isn't true.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    I can imagine sensors here having a certain intreset, in theoretical concepts, and N field's. Unlike the vast majority of sensors who only see the practicality of the E-net. So you could say that sensors here have an inclination towards traditionally N schools of intreset, and of course discussion.

    However to answer the question. No i don't think Sensor's here are much diffrent. More intelligent?, arguable(most likely-unlikely). They are just diffrent in field of intreset.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  4. #54
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    No, a negative opinion on sensors wasn't something I could create once I found out about MBTI and sensors, because I already had a really smart sensor friend who I admire greatly.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

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  5. #55
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    I find Sensors on here and IRL to be about the same. Although my SP family and friend would not entertain this kind of thing for a second.




    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Hmmm..interesting. I'm a very strong "Feeler" and I didn't see it that way at all. If anything, when I read that, I want to give the Idealists a hug because it seems like they have a tremendous burden to carry, with that whole "eternal search for Self" thing, and the struggle with authenticity. It made me glad that I'm not saddled with those feelings, and was actually the final step for convincing me that there's no way I could be an NF. So, for me it had the total opposite effect, despite my believing that many NF causes are noble and admirable, it didn't make me want to BE one.

    The only sections of PUMII where I thought he was a little too narrow with the Guardians was the one on mating and the one on children, because he makes it sound like all SJs are kind of "goody-goody" and never make trouble or hastily jump into relationships, which obviously isn't true.
    I have just finished 'survival games personalities play'. Very interesting read. Of the 4 types i wanted to be mostly associated with NF's, (Ahhh, logic and feelings). I have now come to a conclusion. I don't like how the SJ's are portrayed but still i don't want to be anything else. Everyone is potentially screwed up one way or another.
    You said it, this whole 'goody-goody' bull. Its to narrow of a box and people fall for it.
    "If the book said it, then it must be true". lol.
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  6. #56
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    I don't know where these myths come from

    You could have an absolute twit of an INFP and an awesome ESTJ

    Has nothing to do with type

    SJs are the most common types, there's a higher chance of running into bad ones, thats it, end of story.

    If you think Ns are all brilliant you just haven't met enough of them yet

    Oh and as for S's being different online, just no.

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