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  1. #31
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    But the preferences were based on the functions. They're the same thing, MBTI tries (and fails) to ascribe behaviour to the functions. If you remove functions you're only ever dealing with surface behaviours and you'll never understand someone else if you're only dealing with surface behaviours.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  2. #32
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ That's exactly my point, friend.

    I don't care if the preferences were based on functions; I look at the available information and I see one interpretation which is useful and one which is not.

    MBTI can't reasonably do anything beyond categorize surface behaviors. For my purposes in terms of real uses for the system, it doesn't really matter how Jung or Myers and Briggs intended it or conceptualized it. When I joined this message board I figured anyone trying to use it would understand that, but there are still lots of people running around trying to figure out this functional dogma crap.

    If you really want to understand others on a deeper level, the only way to do that is through prolonged personal interaction and gradual development of mutual understanding.

    If you expect that to come from a four-letter pop psychology system where 6 billion people can be placed into 16 groups, you're most certainly barking up the wrong tree.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #33
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ^ That's exactly my point, friend.

    I don't care if the preferences were based on functions; I look at the available information and I see one interpretation which is useful and one which is not.

    MBTI can't reasonably do anything beyond categorize surface behaviors. For my purposes in terms of real uses for the system, it doesn't really matter how Jung or Myers and Briggs intended it or conceptualized it. When I joined this message board I figured anyone trying to use it would understand that, but there are still lots of people running around trying out this functional dogma crap.

    If you really want to understand others on a deeper level, the only way to do that is through prolonged personal interaction and gradual development of mutual understanding.

    If you expect that to come from a four-letter pop psychology system where 6 billion people can be placed into 16 groups, you're most certainly barking up the wrong tree.
    this is exactly how i would describe what i know about MBTI if i didn't have trouble formulating some of my thoughts.
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  4. #34
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    The functions themselves don't have much use beyond self-examination. It's nigh impossible to tell what's actually going on in someone else's subconscious mental processes.

    So basically, screw functions. Read about what they do so that you can identify the processes in yourself, but when considering the types of others, ask four questions:

    1) E vs. I?
    2) N vs. S?
    3) F vs. T?
    4) P vs. J?
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ^ That's exactly my point, friend.

    I don't care if the preferences were based on functions; I look at the available information and I see one interpretation which is useful and one which is not.

    MBTI can't reasonably do anything beyond categorize surface behaviors. For my purposes in terms of real uses for the system, it doesn't really matter how Jung or Myers and Briggs intended it or conceptualized it. When I joined this message board I figured anyone trying to use it would understand that, but there are still lots of people running around trying to figure out this functional dogma crap.

    If you really want to understand others on a deeper level, the only way to do that is through prolonged personal interaction and gradual development of mutual understanding.

    If you expect that to come from a four-letter pop psychology system where 6 billion people can be placed into 16 groups, you're most certainly barking up the wrong tree.
    Yeah, I pretty much agree with your posts. Every single time I've attempted to throw cognitive functions onto what I already know of another persons' personality type, or tried to use cog. functions to type someone, it just gets royally messed up. Never lines up as it 'should', or there are so many complexities that I can never figure out which functions are actually being used -- as you pointed out earlier, it's because most of the time we're using more than one function to back a decision/action up, and ALL functions are at everybody's disposal. And...obviously people are complex with many motivations behind what they do and WHY they do what they do. Dichotomy is best approach in the end, in my opinion...as far as classification goes. Since it's a general system of trends/preferences to begin with...not a science.
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  5. #35
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ^ That's exactly my point, friend.

    I don't care if the preferences were based on functions; I look at the available information and I see one interpretation which is useful and one which is not.

    MBTI can't reasonably do anything beyond categorize surface behaviors. For my purposes in terms of real uses for the system, it doesn't really matter how Jung or Myers and Briggs intended it or conceptualized it. When I joined this message board I figured anyone trying to use it would understand that, but there are still lots of people running around trying to figure out this functional dogma crap.

    If you really want to understand others on a deeper level, the only way to do that is through prolonged personal interaction and gradual development of mutual understanding.

    If you expect that to come from a four-letter pop psychology system where 6 billion people can be placed into 16 groups, you're most certainly barking up the wrong tree.
    I would be the last person to argue for the usefulness of MBTI but what I'm saying is I can't see how you can have one without the other, if you're going to use mbti you might as well include the functions then you're at least trying to dig a bit deeper to the real person, whereas MBTI without functions is completely arbitrary and you're probably much better served by things like the "Big 5".
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  6. #36
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If you really want to understand others on a deeper level, the only way to do that is through prolonged personal interaction and gradual development of mutual understanding.
    Aww... but that takes FOREVER, and requires a tremendous personal investment.

    I was looking for something faster and more precise than the typical, messy way.

  7. #37
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I would be the last person to argue for the usefulness of MBTI but what I'm saying is I can't see how you can have one without the other, if you're going to use mbti you might as well include the functions then you're at least trying to dig a bit deeper to the real person, whereas MBTI without functions is completely arbitrary and you're probably much better served by things like the "Big 5".
    It just takes a little restructuring of the way Myers and Briggs put it together. (And a little throwing out Jung.)

    It's not really that hard; the reasoning for changing it should be obvious.

    Why is it necessary to follow their system to the letter in order to get any use out of it? If their system has obvious flaws, and I want to use it for something, it only makes sense that I should determine the ways in which it could be made more plausible/effective and then apply them to form my own interpretation.

    "But that violates the purity of the authors' intent!" is not really a serious concern.

    The Big 5 can do something similar, yes, but it's just another label for the same concepts. I've invested enough in researching competing theories to find that they're all effectively the same thing.

    And like I said--if you want to dig deeper into a specific person, MBTI is the wrong tool. Don't use a machete when you need the precision of a pocket knife.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #38
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I suppose you're right, i'm just not particularly interested in categorising surface behaviours, so if it was me I'd throw them both in the bin.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  9. #39
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Well, you're an ISFP, aren't you?

    Right now you're displaying the S behavior of showing disinterest in a system which provides only long term averages and cannot be applied consistently to any one single situation, and you find that it has no practical value.

    And in a way, you're right. If the question is, "Can it reliably help me further my in-depth understanding of any real, specific people?", then no--it can't.

    But if you get off on connecting the dots between things more often than on examining the precise details of single particular things, MBTI is a lot of fun and somewhat useful in behavioral theory...when considered correctly.

    All of these "Ss prefer physical things" and "Ns are space cadets" and so on are just symptoms of the root cause of N vs. S, and this is why N/S is truly the most fundamental axis. It's the lens through which the basis of one's most preferred approach to everything is filtered. Those random personal preference details don't define it--in reality it's just a difference in scope.

    There's a long line of chalk boards floating somewhere in the ether, ok? The Sensor is standing immediately in front of one chalk board and able to read and examine everything it says with total clarity (as well as lots of other things, but you get the idea.)

    The iNtuitive is standing 100 feet away, and observing the relationships between the chalk boards themselves. We can't see particular chalk boards as clearly as you, but if we can conceptualize all of them in terms of a unifying theory to explain the relationships between them, we understand things much better.

    Usually, that is. Ns take S approaches to things and vice versa all the time, so it won't tell you how anyone's going to act at any particular moment. If that doesn't strike you as useful, then fair enough--honestly, I understand.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #40
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    It's an accepted tenet of Jungian personality theory.

    Jung explains all of this in his book "Psychological Types." If you read it, he explains exactly how he knows it, and it makes sense to me. It's a very long, complicated read, though.
    Am I really speaking Swahili here? I asked Udog how HE knows this. If you make a declarative statement, you gotta have something to back it up. If it's just "accepted" then you might as well be the Flat Earth Society. The Earth is flat just because we say it is.
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