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  1. #21
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    This was bloody brilliant. Kudos to you.
    Haha, brilliant - except in my actual life, I'm the boss (female) and my secretary is a male. just sayin'.

  2. #22
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ LIKE A BOSS
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #23
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    You all got boss-issues ^^
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #24
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    How bout something that actually answers the question? All you've done is change the question from "How does Udog know?" to "How does Joe Butt know?"
    Joe Butt pulled that from MBTI theory.

    Why are you asking?

    Edit - How do I know that? I know that because the theory states it. Right now, isn't that what we are talking about?

  5. #25
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Joe Butt pulled that from MBTI theory.

    Why are you asking?
    I can't speak for Jeffster, but my personal thought is that a lot of people take the theory, and cognitive function order, as a given, without questioning it. Now granted, this is a forum devoted to the theory, so I doubt it's the place to actively raise eyebrows at the theory itself. But based on people I've known in real life, and observation, I've never truly been convinced myself on the validity of all of it - specifically the iron-clad function orders. Then I try to remind myself that mbti is a pretty system, and as such it needs a structured cognitive function order to complete the framework.

    It's possible though I misunderstand the theory or am mis-applying it in some way.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #26
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Haha, brilliant - except in my actual life, I'm the boss (female) and my secretary is a male. just sayin'.
    I love seeing situations where stereotypes are reversed.

    I just didn't want to reverse them in my example, because I was worried it would look contrived. And might even confuse an ESFP (no offense).

  7. #27
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Then I try to remind myself that mbti is a pretty system, and as such it needs a structured cognitive function order to complete the framework.
    That really is why you don't want to mess with the order. If you don't have a structured order, you kind of mess with the foundations of the system and don't really have a lot that's usable.

    So if you really want to throw away functional order, you pretty much have to dismantle the whole theory and put it back together as something new, maybe using a few of the old pieces.

  8. #28
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That really is why you don't want to mess with the order. If you don't have a structured order, you kind of mess with the foundations of the system and don't really have a lot that's usable.

    So if you really want to throw away functional order, you pretty much have to dismantle the whole theory and put it back together as something new, maybe using a few of the old pieces.
    Yes, tis unfortunate. As I've often wanted to dismantle the entire cognitive function theory. I'm ok with keeping the 16 types as nice little generalizations and 'trends', if you will, but I often want to scrap the cognitive function crap. haha. Anything beyond the first two ceases to be very relevant. There's too much variation when you throw in nurture and other psych. factors.

    But Karen - Athenian and Udog explained the function theory well. I'm just being curmudgeonly. ;-)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #29
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I can't speak for Jeffster, but my personal thought is that a lot of people take the theory, and cognitive function order, as a given, without questioning it.


    There's the intellectual foundation of the theory, and there's the application of the theory. It is important to differentiate between the two.

    My intention was to provide a decent base of knowledge as to how the theory tries to categorize the ESFP. That's the intellectual foundation - the theory.

    She's free to disagree in how it applies to her though. In fact, in order to use MBTI in the best possible way, I highly encourage she does just that. Likely some things I wrote will resonate, while others... not so much.

    The process of figuring out how the theory fails to describe you is at least as important as understanding how it succeeds.

  10. #30
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I can't speak for Jeffster, but my personal thought is that a lot of people take the theory, and cognitive function order, as a given, without questioning it. Now granted, this is a forum devoted to the theory, so I doubt it's the place to actively raise eyebrows at the theory itself. But based on people I've known in real life, and observation, I've never truly been convinced myself on the validity of all of it - specifically the iron-clad function orders. Then I try to remind myself that mbti is a pretty system, and as such it needs a structured cognitive function order to complete the framework.

    It's possible though I misunderstand the theory or am mis-applying it in some way.
    Ironclad functional order is dumb.

    The functions themselves don't have much use beyond self-examination. It's nigh impossible to tell what's actually going on in someone else's subconscious mental processes.

    The real use of MBTI is in its labels and system of categorization of externalized behaviors. When you consider it as a system of four independent variables of behavioral preferences, without attempting to compare their strengths relative to each other, it works well enough to provide an added degree of understanding/predictability.

    This is the way the system was introduced to me in a book called Type Talk, and it's the way I still use it today. The authors mention the functions, but only in passing and kind of as a supplement, a bit of a "here this might be interesting to think about" afterthought.

    So basically, screw functions. Read about what they do so that you can identify the processes in yourself, but when considering the types of others, ask four questions:

    1) E vs. I?
    2) N vs. S?
    3) F vs. T?
    4) P vs. J?

    There are ample resources on the internet for what each of those means...but remember that these are independent variables, meaning that if you're an ISTJ, you prefer I over E, S over N, T over F and J over P, but that which preference is stronger than the others is entirely dependent upon the person. Insisting that all ISTJs are best in Si, then 2nd best in Te, etc. is just silly and makes no intuitive sense.

    I totally get where Jeffster is coming from. If we're to expect any real use out of MBTI beyond a cute parlor game, we have to consider it purely as an arbitrary categorization system of externalized behaviors.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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