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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default the tertiary function:overdevelopment

    So in Lenorre's book she speaks to the problems that happen when folks overdevelop the tertiary function rather than develop the functions in the natural order.

    So to follow the discussion:
    1) you have to buy into cognitive functions
    2) think they may, mostly come in some sort of specific order, relative to the types

    IRL, I tend to use Ne, Te, Fi rather than the conventional Ne, Fi, Te for an enfp. So I guess I overuse Te. There are pluses and minuses here and retrospectively I can see how I have both been helped and hindered by this approach in my life.

    It makes me anaytical and driven and gives me some structure, but can also come across as bitchy, dominating, cold and bossy. If I am being logical I also like to be in control. Because it couples with Fi, I can also look moody as I swap between the two. Also the contrast can be irritating and unpredictable to others-am I fluffy puppy or dominant, analyzing puppy?

    So my question-rather than spend lots of time "fixing" Fi to make it stronger-the lenorre solution, why not just build Te even more to make it less infantile and problematic? Why cant we just have an extra 16 personality types for us wierdos who overuse our tertiary functions?

  2. #2
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    hahahaha, well, You could make extra types to encompass you, but it serves no important role really. It's easier to just write down which functions you use dominantly, if you really want people to know your type or something. I find that I use Fe a fair bit, it seems to be quite an advantage when it comes to making friends and not looking like a total cold hard robot. I would rather not let Fe dominate my secondary Ti however, I don't consider my Fe all that useful... but then again, it's probably underdeveloped, which would explain why I'm thinking that it gets in my way a little bit to much.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    So my question-rather than spend lots of time "fixing" Fi to make it stronger-the lenorre solution, why not just build Te even more to make it less infantile and problematic? Why cant we just have an extra 16 personality types for us wierdos who overuse our tertiary functions?
    First, because that would make you overly extroverted and dependent on others. It isn't a matter of developing these functions until they are fully mature. They each play a "role" in your personality - for instance you might call the tertiary function the "escape artist" because that's exactly what the tertiary function tends to do--excuse you from situations you aren't comfortable with. So really, to develop this function to the point of maturity would be to keep it in check.

    So, my tertiary function is Si, and the reason I use it is because I feel more comfortable using a function with the same intro/extro-version as my dominant function. When wanting to meet new people at a party, I might get shy and my Si would come up with rationalizations like "I never know what to say to people" or "there is never anyone with the same interests as me." At that point you give up and go do something introverted, like either leave the party or sit there and keep to yourself, getting quite bored, but at least in control of the situation.

    According to Thompson, you can forget about trying to develop your inferior function and go with the auxiliary, but she stops cold there, for some reason. She doesn't actually say how to do this, ever. Perhaps there is a more profound aspect of life here, and there simply is no way to successfully do this but to fail countless times with the "tertiary escapist" until you finally give up and just do what you've really wanted to do all along. Which, in my case, would be to approach and talk to people regardless of what they'll think of me, and maybe even ask out a pretty lil woman.

    Some people say that you can develop functions with certain exercises, but I don't really believe in that. They'll say that you can develop Ne by "being creative" and solving puzzles and shit... no, I don't think so. While you need to use Ne to do those things, it will still only develop that tiny aspect of Ne and not the whole thing, which is quite vast--so vast that you either have it or you don't, and to try to develop it if you weren't naturally born with it would be a complete waste of time.

    So in the end, we all face the same problem in life eventually, and that is the unknown. Life's instruction manual will take you to a certain point, but that simply is not far enough for anyone. Instructions about life are always generalities, but the fact is that we are all unique. You can follow the conventional wisdom until you're at least making the cut, but again--not enough. After this, you need to know yourself and figure out how to make life your own, and since there is only 1 of you, no one is there to tell you how to do this except you. Lenore has used the MBTI system to describe this phenomenon of life, and this important stage of life is translated as "developing your auxiliary function." By its very nature, however, she can't tell anyone how to do this.

  4. #4
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    Maybe hanging around people that use your secondary/tertiary functions dominantly can inspire you to improve that particular function? It is really just going to happen regardless, it doesn't seem like a thing that you can control and structure. What you should probably do instead is to put in effort in the things that you do, and perhaps widen the range of the things that you do as well. If you sit around and do nothing but mathematics for 20 years, your functions may develop, but I doubt they would be very balanced.

    Aside: why do I see functions as specific colours:
    N-red
    S-green
    F-yellow
    T-blue

    I've been able to do this to subjects as well... Physics: blue, Science: green, Society and Environment: yellow/brown, English: yellow, Maths: teal, specialist maths: darker blue, Mathematical studies: lighter blue, Art: red/pink, Phys Ed.: unknown, Biology: yellow/green, Chemistry: yellow, maybe orange
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  5. #5
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Of-Despair View Post
    Maybe hanging around people that use your secondary/tertiary functions dominantly can inspire you to improve that particular function? It is really just going to happen regardless, it doesn't seem like a thing that you can control and structure. What you should probably do instead is to put in effort in the things that you do, and perhaps widen the range of the things that you do as well. If you sit around and do nothing but mathematics for 20 years, your functions may develop, but I doubt they would be very balanced.
    Hanging around people with your auxiliary function is not a bad idea. I am good friends with an ENTP and he certainly has no trouble approaching strangers and being his goofy self around them, and maybe that could rub off on me. However, I always feel like the sidekick around him, so our friendship isn't one of those truly amazing ones that really resonates.

    What I am attempting to do right now is embrace the unknown. As I reflect on my own thoughts, I realize just how often I don't actually know what I am talking about, and that I am often analyzing people as if they are acting from my own value system. More and more these days, I wind up with the conclusion "I don't know."

    I am also doing zazen meditation daily now. Basically in this meditation you sit still and turn off your mental dialog. My best guess as to how this would help is that it undermines the memes you've been programmed with. Why would that be important? Because memes equal authority. You become a slave to the word-groups that you use, and the only way to get them out of control is to simply stop believing in them, and the only way I can think of to do this is to turn them off and witness silence.

  6. #6
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    It's interesting thinking about the possibility of overdeveloping your tertiary function. I'd say as an ISTJ, I've tended to overlook Fi at times because it just didn't line up with the coldness that Te wanted. I've been trying to let myself use Ne lately. It's been more of extraverting, but attempting to "turn off the judgment" and just go with the flow, which leads to me getting slightly more bursts of intuition from Ne. It's smaller things, but I'm liking it.

    I found though when I was able to do that, I started making more judgments off of Fi. That scared me at first because it made me feel "touchy-feely." The better part though, came when I started combining my small bursts of intuition from Ne with the judgments from Fi, and I started feeling empathic. That end result made it worth it. I felt like I was thinking about other people, but separating myself from my ExFJ family members in that I was displaying empathy rather than consideration.


  7. #7
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    I found though when I was able to do that, I started making more judgments off of Fi. That scared me at first because it made me feel "touchy-feely." The better part though, came when I started combining my small bursts of intuition from Ne with the judgments from Fi, and I started feeling empathic. That end result made it worth it. I felt like I was thinking about other people, but separating myself from my ExFJ family members in that I was displaying empathy rather than consideration.
    No offense but this all struck me as gibberish. That touchy-feely feeling and the empathy probably came from Si. Fi is a function that tells ISTJs "I can't do this because it would damage my soul." Si-Te is a combination very concerned with morality and inferior Ne tends to be the function that floods you with unwanted, immoral-sounding thoughts. ISTJs introvert further with Fi, convincing themselves that people are debauched, hedonistic, and immoral and should be avoided.

    To incorporate Te would mean to organize structured events where the focus is not on debauchery, like cookouts, sporting events, and the likes. The challenge would be to make these events palatable for people who would normally enjoy something a bit more visceral.

  8. #8
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Of-Despair View Post

    Aside: why do I see functions as specific colours:
    N-red
    S-green
    F-yellow
    T-blue

    I've been able to do this to subjects as well... Physics: blue, Science: green, Society and Environment: yellow/brown, English: yellow, Maths: teal, specialist maths: darker blue, Mathematical studies: lighter blue, Art: red/pink, Phys Ed.: unknown, Biology: yellow/green, Chemistry: yellow, maybe orange
    ...Synaethesia?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #9
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    No offense but this all struck me as gibberish. That touchy-feely feeling and the empathy probably came from Si. Fi is a function that tells ISTJs "I can't do this because it would damage my soul." Si-Te is a combination very concerned with morality and inferior Ne tends to be the function that floods you with unwanted, immoral-sounding thoughts. ISTJs introvert further with Fi, convincing themselves that people are debauched, hedonistic, and immoral and should be avoided.

    To incorporate Te would mean to organize structured events where the focus is not on debauchery, like cookouts, sporting events, and the likes. The challenge would be to make these events palatable for people who would normally enjoy something a bit more visceral.
    That makes sense, but I'm just still not getting the part of Si/Te having those morals. Apparently it's a different set of morals from an SFJ? I'd say I operate more on accepted logical principles than social morals.


  10. #10
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    That makes sense, but I'm just still not getting the part of Si/Te having those morals. Apparently it's a different set of morals from an SFJ? I'd say I operate more on accepted logical principles than social morals.
    Well, I'm no expert here either but I do understand that Si seems to be a function about consistency. It's about having a set of values that can be relied on consistently no matter how situations change. Te is a function aware of social contract, which of course is a way of thinking logically rather than emotionally.

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