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  1. #21
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    LOL "some jobs". That's a bold overstatement... how about "next to no" jobs?

    We all know jobs comparable to being an army general are just as plentiful as those comparable to enlisted men.
    you're giving me semantics, sailor, so i'll give you the same: you implied that ALL jobs were looking for detail oriented people, i just proved you wrong.

    besides, since there are so many less people being N, it is only natural that there would be less N based jobs, don't you think? and if you can't find those, then i'm thinking you're looking in the wrong places. try google?
    Sentura, I think what Mac was trying to say is that whether or not the actual tasks of a job are all about details (although for most jobs, they *are*), that employers don't actively look for people who would describe themselves as "not detail oriented - more of a big picture person". Are there exceptions? Probably. But in my experience they are VERY rare (as in, I've never seen one - Mac's "all" is a more accurate general statement than "some" or even "a large majority" would be). The reason people hire other people to work for them is to take care of the details the employer doesn't have time for - the employer thinks that they themselves are in charge of the big picture - even if the job's for a "big picture" type role - the scope of "details" changes much more than the employer wanting a "detail oriented" person.

    Let's face it - a lot of people see "not really detail oriented" as meaning "lazy and not conscientious." It's probably not as bad a thing to put on your resume as "convicted felon" - but it's going to be a stumbling block against getting hired for almost anything (you'd want to do) either.
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  2. #22
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Sentura, I think what Mac was trying to say is that whether or not the actual tasks of a job are all about details (although for most jobs, they *are*), that employers don't actively look for people who would describe themselves as "not detail oriented - more of a big picture person". Are there exceptions? Probably. But in my experience they are VERY rare (as in, I've never seen one - Mac's "all" is a more accurate general statement than "some" or even "a large majority" would be). The reason people hire other people to work for them is to take care of the details the employer doesn't have time for - the employer thinks that they themselves are in charge of the big picture - even if the job's for a "big picture" type role - the scope of "details" changes much more than the employer wanting a "detail oriented" person.

    Let's face it - a lot of people see "not really detail oriented" as meaning "lazy and not conscientious." It's probably not as bad a thing to put on your resume as "convicted felon" - but it's going to be a stumbling block against getting hired for almost anything (you'd want to do) either.
    good point with the employer being the big picture person. however, there can be a 'smaller' bigger picture inside a larger bigger picture. my point was that i can easily dig up a dozen jobs within a few different spheres that are not concerned with details. while these may have requirements, i'm saying that these same jobs would be done better by a N person than a S person. keep in mind that i dig these up in denmark (5 million inhabitants), so scale up for larger countries.

    the reason i think you're missing the point is that you are concentrated on one specific sphere. there are plenty of good job opportunities without degrees if you choose to look for them. if you can't find them, try somewhere else. beggars can't be choosers.

    and of course you'll be able to find good and bad wording for every situation. but honestly, not writing detail oriented on a CV is hardly going to make a difference in whether you get a job or not. i'm sure qualifications come before statements without merit.

    as for your experience: i don't really care what you think is a better approximate of whether what jobs there are most of. there is perhaps a 60/40 worker/manager ratio worldwide if you include middle management. 20-30% of the world's population are N, the rest are S. just because you haven't been able to find any doesn't mean they don't exist. the proof of claim rests on the plaintiff, not the defendant.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    I'm going through something at my job right now that seems like just such pressure. I have an ISFJ boss who having never read an ESFJ description in his life is nearly reciting one to me in his "advice"! ESFJs are fine but I'm not one. I don't see things the same way and I never will. I'm finding that I am growing ever resentful about it.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    good point with the employer being the big picture person. however, there can be a 'smaller' bigger picture inside a larger bigger picture. my point was that i can easily dig up a dozen jobs within a few different spheres that are not concerned with details. while these may have requirements, i'm saying that these same jobs would be done better by a N person than a S person. keep in mind that i dig these up in denmark (5 million inhabitants), so scale up for larger countries.

    the reason i think you're missing the point is that you are concentrated on one specific sphere. there are plenty of good job opportunities without degrees if you choose to look for them. if you can't find them, try somewhere else. beggars can't be choosers.

    and of course you'll be able to find good and bad wording for every situation. but honestly, not writing detail oriented on a CV is hardly going to make a difference in whether you get a job or not. i'm sure qualifications come before statements without merit.

    as for your experience: i don't really care what you think is a better approximate of whether what jobs there are most of. there is perhaps a 60/40 worker/manager ratio worldwide if you include middle management. 20-30% of the world's population are N, the rest are S. just because you haven't been able to find any doesn't mean they don't exist. the proof of claim rests on the plaintiff, not the defendant.
    Even middle management is very detail-oriented.

    Did you get that memo about the TPS cover sheets?

  5. #25
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    good point with the employer being the big picture person. however, there can be a 'smaller' bigger picture inside a larger bigger picture. my point was that i can easily dig up a dozen jobs within a few different spheres that are not concerned with details. while these may have requirements, i'm saying that these same jobs would be done better by a N person than a S person. keep in mind that i dig these up in denmark (5 million inhabitants), so scale up for larger countries.
    In the US, they put "detail-oriented" in the job description whether it's really necessary or not. It's something I've noticed as well. It's just some buzz word that they love to throw in. It shows how the S values dominate society though, as the criteria is often based on what they think is important vs what is really required to do the job well.

    I can tell when extroverts write the job descriptions too - they always want "people persons" and "upbeat attitudes", even for notoriously introverted jobs like graphic design - yeah, good luck with that.

    Ultimately, every job will have some mundane crap you have to take care of. That's just life. The more you can minimize it the better. I find myself being quite innovative at times in trying to get out of doing "busy" work.

    I think I have "detail-oriented" on my resume, come to think of it. I may even have "team player"
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #26
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    "People oriented" E
    "Detail oriented" S
    "Team player" F
    "Time management skills" J




    And you all wonder why INTPs bitch so much about working???

  7. #27
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    "People oriented" E
    "Detail oriented" S
    "Team player" F
    "Time management skills" J




    And you all wonder why INTPs bitch so much about working???


    What about:

    "level-headed and rational" T

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post


    What about:

    "level-headed and rational" T
    Sometimes you see something similar to this, but not always. F/T is the function that seems to be in the neighborhood of 50/50.

  9. #29
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    In the US, they put "detail-oriented" in the job description whether it's really necessary or not. It's something I've noticed as well. It's just some buzz word that they love to throw in. It shows how the S values dominate society though, as the criteria is often based on what they think is important vs what is really required to do the job well.

    I can tell when extroverts write the job descriptions too - they always want "people persons" and "upbeat attitudes", even for notoriously introverted jobs like graphic design - yeah, good luck with that.

    Ultimately, every job will have some mundane crap you have to take care of. That's just life. The more you can minimize it the better. I find myself being quite innovative at times in trying to get out of doing "busy" work.

    I think I have "detail-oriented" on my resume, come to think of it. I may even have "team player"
    Yeah, I try to stay away from bold-faced lies myself

    I have in my CV that I possess (and I quote):

    - Adaptability and flexibility
    - A thorough work ethic and eagerness to learn
    - An ability to work independently and take initiative
    - Conscientiousness and dependability

    These are emphasizing my INFP skills but I always have a sneaking suspicion that people will read the above as:

    - unable to keep to schedules
    - nerdy but without practical or useful knowledge
    - can't work in groups or follow orders
    - boring

    Maybe I'm just being paranoid. I must say its interesting to think about all this code speak for types.

  10. #30
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I can't say that I feel pressured to 'act S' - although to echo what someone else already wrote in here, I don't really know what that means anyway. I don't feel any pressure at all to perceive the world in a different way, but the way I perceive/view/prioritize things does mean I feel intensely alone, and separate, from the vast majority. At times I feel that I belong nowhere, with no group. So it can be quite lonely at times. But this isn't a constant state (which is good)!!

    I think there are a lot more demands for extroversion though, and I feel some level of pressure in most situations to be more extroverted than I really am. I inevitably feel the need to talk/interact/externalize more than I really want to. Social interactions just kinda require that, by their very nature. And since people are talking about jobs, there are a lot of jobs out there that I don't even want to entertain (customer service, anything phone/sales-related, management, retail, probably most positions in the medical field, etc), or know I'd be miserable at or stressed out with, because I'm so introverted and really dislike interacting in such a fast-paced manner, with such a people-focus.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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