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S v N T v F burn the stereotypes lol *inserts devil smile ^^P*

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from wiki...
not sure what else you need really. that's why i haven't answered.

Functions: Sensing (S) / iNtuition (N) and Thinking (T) / Feeling (F)

Jung identified two pairs of psychological functions:

* The two perceiving functions, sensing and intuition
* The two judging functions, thinking and feeling

According to the Myers-Briggs typology model, each person uses one of these four functions more dominantly and proficiently than the other three; however, all four functions are used at different times depending on the circumstances.

Sensing and Intuition are the information-gathering (perceiving) functions. They describe how new information is understood and interpreted. Individuals who prefer sensing are more likely to trust information that is in the present, tangible and concrete: that is, information that can be understood by the five senses. They tend to distrust hunches that seem to come out of nowhere. They prefer to look for details and facts. For them, the meaning is in the data. On the other hand, those who prefer intuition tend to trust information that is more abstract or theoretical, that can be associated with other information (either remembered or discovered by seeking a wider context or pattern). They may be more interested in future possibilities. They tend to trust those flashes of insight that seem to bubble up from the unconscious mind. The meaning is in how the data relates to the pattern or theory.

Thinking and feeling are the decision-making (judging) functions. The thinking and feeling functions are both used to make rational decisions, based on the data received from their information-gathering functions (sensing or intuition). Those who prefer thinking tend to decide things from a more detached standpoint, measuring the decision by what seems reasonable, logical, causal, consistent and matching a given set of rules. Those who prefer feeling tend to come to decisions by associating or empathizing with the situation, looking at it 'from the inside' and weighing the situation to achieve, on balance, the greatest harmony, consensus and fit, considering the needs of the people involved.

As noted already, people who prefer thinking do not necessarily, in the everyday sense, 'think better' than their feeling counterparts; the opposite preference is considered an equally rational way of coming to decisions (and, in any case, the MBTI assessment is a measure of preference, not ability). Similarly, those who prefer feeling do not necessarily have 'better' emotional reactions than their thinking counterparts.

wow thank you lady X this is another great clear source and post.
I think is going to be very helpful with the F vs T hmm.....

Thank you very much. *goes to look over the T and F paragraph*
I can see also how S can relate to T in some areas like
let's look at this realistically, wanting evidence or facts for proof of a statement right?
Am i getting this or i am just not grasping this right?
S versus T I wonder where can they look alike and possibly get mistaken for one another?

I read somwhere that S and T can seem to relate well to one another (someone prefering S and another prefering T).
 

Lady_X

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i never actually thought about that being confusing but i think i see your point. it may very well appear that the s person is being rational looking at the facts and maybe it looks like t...to you...like logical/illogical i get that i think...i think it's because you trust your data because you have evidence...you may not trust the data that an n is trying to convince you of? is that what you mean?

is that even what i mean?? i think i just confused myself. : /
 
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i never actually thought about that being confusing but i think i see your point. it may very well appear that the s person is being rational looking at the facts and maybe it looks like t...to you...like logical/illogical i get that i think...i think it's because you trust your data because you have evidence...you may not trust the data that an n is trying to convince you of? is that what you mean?

is that even what i mean?? i think i just confused myself. : /

;)
I don't know.
yeah that's what I was wondering like when you hear S described in theory it seems that them wanting actual proof of something but i guess if i'm understanding correctly because of S being a Information processing function and T being a Judgment function I guess the distinction might be made like

S: when coming across information they need to have it be practical, able to actually be applied in the real world not just for the fun of considering the possibility it has to apply first (N? even it's not going to be applied they still play around with the idea kind of thing)

T: when making a judgement would apply an objective, pragmatic? realistic (but more in the sense of not clouded by emotional connections not the S being realistic as it is only useful if it can be applied to there five senses/ in the hear and now/present moment or situation/problem etc)

I think i could see S being considered to appear rational also like you said in gathering information compared to what some may consider to appear not rational = N but i think there both great functions i'm not putting them negatively. just comparing how some consider t versus f well maybe n versus s has kind of a similarity there in the sense S seems more "logical/practical" N seems more "speculative, goes off into tangents of other ways to do things that an S may not have even thought of like something totally off the wall from what's going on but somehow makes sense xD"

Am i getting this right? T i don't quite understand so much but i tried.
sorry to confuse you with this.
 
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Originally Posted by Lady X
is that even what i mean?? i think i just confused myself. : /


:hug: there there....Lady X they say if your not confused your not thinking clearly enough so go you :yes:.
 
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Last edited:
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yeah i guess i can see the difference now with the link you sent.

I would love to hear other types too and how they don't fit the conceived stereotype I'd love for this discussion to be a haven for people who are new to this and can get the real deal ;)/to get away from stereotyping.
so far it's doing great *is really happy*

thanks again for the link and all you guys contributing jeremy too.
 
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come out unique

i wonder where unique is *looks all around the forum*
I think it would be perfect for him to come here and post to hopefully bust those estp stereotypes. He's really insightful....come out come out whereever you are ;) hehe.
halla74 also is really good too
both halla74/ "?" and Unique make some really amazing posts in this discussion.
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/sp-arthouse/16470-estp-s-relationships-courting.html

and other types who feel that they feel that there needs to be something said to blow the sterotypes out of the water :devil:

:hug: :hug:
 

Xander

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INTP is not I+N+T+P, it is INTP. No more, no less.

It does include elements of I, but not all of them.
It does include elements of N, but not all of them.
It does include elements of T, but not all of them.
It does include elements of P, but not all of them.
It does include elements of NT, but not all of them.
It does include elements of IP, but not all of them.
It does include elements of NTP, but not all of them.

I wish more people understood this.

Oh and universally, INTP does not equal INTP either. I'm an INTP but INTP isn't me (that's how you kick stereotypes into touch).

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, "Song of Myself"
US poet (1819 - 1892)
-First seen as MacGuffin's signature like 6 years ago or something freaky like that!!

I'm beginning to think that INTP as a type simply means INTP>ESFJ and that each paring represents a set of trait that people are then either closer to being INTP or ESFJ and get typed as such.

{I hope this muddies the water sufficiently to make all things clear}
 
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INTP is not I+N+T+P, it is INTP. No more, no less.

It does include elements of I, but not all of them.
It does include elements of N, but not all of them.
It does include elements of T, but not all of them.
It does include elements of P, but not all of them.
It does include elements of NT, but not all of them.
It does include elements of IP, but not all of them.
It does include elements of NTP, but not all of them.

I wish more people understood this. (great example...very clear :yes:)

Oh and universally, INTP does not equal INTP either. I'm an INTP but INTP isn't me (that's how you kick stereotypes into touch).

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, "Song of Myself"
US poet (1819 - 1892)
-First seen as MacGuffin's signature like 6 years ago or something freaky like that!!

I'm beginning to think that INTP as a type simply means INTP>ESFJ and that each paring represents a set of trait that people are then either closer to being INTP or ESFJ and get typed as such.

{I hope this muddies the water sufficiently to make all things clear}

thank you very much xander for sharing :newwink:.
Now when you say universally what do you mean by universally and intp does not equal intp. (could that be what you meant below about intp isn't you?)

I think i get what you mean by your intp but intp isn't you. you as an individual define intp am i right? if so that makes alot of sense.

And by INTP>ESFJ do you mean that some can be somewhere in the middle of those two types?
thanks again Xander
 

Xander

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thank you very much xander for sharing :newwink:.
Now when you say universally what do you mean by universally and intp does not equal intp. (could that be what you meant below about intp isn't you?)

I think i get what you mean by your intp but intp isn't you. you as an individual define intp am i right? if so that makes alot of sense.

And by INTP>ESFJ do you mean that some can be somewhere in the middle of those two types?
thanks again Xander
Well I am an INTP and a lot can be learned about me by knowing my type but I am both more and less than the type suggests. What I'm saying, in essence but underlining it, is that I'm an individual and the type description only attempts to outline me in certain respects. Most people certainly don't expect a high energy INTP who's a 9 in enneagram. I confuse most people :smile:

As for the whole INTP>ESFJ, both are part of who I am. Certain parts of the ESFJ type come through at points but in the main I am an INTP. Of course on top of this simplified view is the influences I've been exposed to like being brought up in a family of Js, having an ESTP wife, working with ESTJs and having many friends (most of whom seem to be NFs but the odd INTJ and ENTP certainly spices the mix :devil: ).

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that S is nothing, T is nothing, P is nothing... they only mean something when brought into context. INTP>I+N+T+P. Also I'm trying to underline that the human condition would appear to be filled with contradiction and as such no type should be thought of as comprehensive. It's more like the blurb on the back of the book. Sure you identify with the book after having read some of it and then you re-read the blurb but it misses a lot of the content and should be considered sketchy at best.

I must say though you direct approach to understanding this mess is most refreshing. You seem to have little in the way of constructed ideas to match things to. Heck you're being OBJECTIVE!!! There's one contradiction, an objective F. Not that such is unusual. I know a very militant and organised ENFP, though it's most certainly done in the most ... errm... individualistic manner :newwink:
 
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Well I am an INTP and a lot can be learned about me by knowing my type but I am both more and less than the type suggests. What I'm saying, in essence but underlining it, is that I'm an individual and the type description only attempts to outline me in certain respects. Most people certainly don't expect a high energy INTP who's a 9 in enneagram. I confuse most people :smile:

hey yeah you got a point there usually what is on the forum hear is intp's usually type on enneagram 5,6. I definitely think an INTP 9 is possible and can happen just like those infp's who say there type 8 (seriously) I'm going to take there word for it and there's nothing wrong with going outside the box of what is accepted. Also they know themselves better then i or anyone else ever could so I would believe them (not blindly but you know :newwink:)

As for the whole INTP>ESFJ, both are part of who I am. Certain parts of the ESFJ type come through at points but in the main I am an INTP. Of course on top of this simplified view is the influences I've been exposed to like being brought up in a family of Js, having an ESTP wife, working with ESTJs and having many friends (most of whom seem to be NFs but the odd INTJ and ENTP certainly spices the mix :devil: ). * see that's what i'm talking about, environmental influences add to the individual representation. it's nice to add to the melting pot :hug:. So being brought up in a family of J's I'm assuming can rub off there J-ness onto you ?
I know it has for me but it's not natural or preferred it just comes in handy. I find i'm alittle bit more towards just getting a task done and over with. Lately instead of when i was in middle school and would wait till the last minute :devil: I learned that's going to just create more stress so J-ness help me out hehe.


I guess what I'm trying to get across is that S is nothing, T is nothing, P is nothing... they only mean something when brought into context. INTP>I+N+T+P. Also I'm trying to underline that the human condition would appear to be filled with contradiction and as such no type should be thought of as comprehensive. It's more like the blurb on the back of the book. Sure you identify with the book after having read some of it and then you re-read the blurb but it misses a lot of the content and should be considered sketchy at best.

* you mean as whole, functions working together ? Absolutely that could be just why some people have such a hard time typing themselves
were humans were never going to fit under one type that's it end of the line yadda yadda. I know for me I have developed Ti hugely alongside Fi Te is the weakest but i fit now that i look at it more and more ISFP preferences but it's like you said with your type I'm isfp but isfp isn't me. that makes it feel so much more open to interpretation I like that. Hopefully people who are trying to pick there type will realize that it's not all cut and dry. Someone told me on hear also that there all sorts of variations of types no one is going to be like the other. Also I'm going to say *just my opinion* I wish people didn't try to compare that certain types belong in this type on the enneagram. Two seperate systems maybe there is more of a chance of type being an E6/E2 etc but that doesn't mean it's all only that one way. Really can be deceiving cause me being a 6 made me think I must be isfj for example (oh no lol far from it) now that's just my opinion :hug:.
:yes:

I must say though you direct approach to understanding this mess is most refreshing. You seem to have little in the way of constructed ideas to match things to. Heck you're being OBJECTIVE!!! There's one contradiction, an objective F. Not that such is unusual. I know a very militant and organised ENFP, though it's most certainly done in the most ... errm... individualistic manner :newwink:

why thank you Xander that means alot I'm glad you find it refreshing cause sometimes i wonder if i'm coming across in a clear objective way (i'm kind of scattered :blush:) I never want to assume something or get to stuck/attached on an idea/type/theory etc.
Yay!!!! I'm being objective.
I always had that objectivity too despite being an F :yes: which i think brings to light the whole nurture thing I seriously wouldn't be surprised if my Ti developed to near strength as my Fi like they work together in a way checking each other for inconsistencies. Which could make since why I agree with alot of Ti dominant's on some discussions especially with Fe inferior. (my Fe needs quite a bit of work xD thankfully I have an ISFJ mother/2 sisters/ and an ISFJ friend to assist me in Fe ness :newwink:). Thank you so much Xander. Apologize if i'm all over the place in my writing style :shock: :hug:








[/B]
 

lunalum

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INTP is not I+N+T+P, it is INTP. No more, no less.

Oh and universally, INTP does not equal INTP either. I'm an INTP but INTP isn't me (that's how you kick stereotypes into touch).

:huh:

I cannot understand your approach that seems to say that the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts, and that A does not equal A.

At least you succeeded in muddying the water ;)
 

EJCC

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This whole site in general needs a few opinionated ESTJs with a womans touch. Why are they so sparce? i'll bet they contemplate putting in their .02, but then read just one more post and go half nutzoid.

<estj-self-advertising>
I'm here! I just don't post here very much. Cool to know I'm needed (even though I kind of think that "estj" and "woman's touch" is an oxymoron)! Thank you! (btw, the ".02" thing was very clever :)) Is there anything you want to know? I'm here if anyone has questions about anything ESTJ-related!
</estj-self-advertising>

Also... (cue epic fail at quoting):
"what is a common theme among types that may not be so obvious especially T women who seem F because of conditioning? being female/ growing up around F's etc."
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. But I will say that everybody is affected by the types that surround them. There are a bunch of threads here that reference cultural effects on people, making them seem like a type that they're not. I know that loads of people act like a different type as a survival mechanism with regard to their career (e.g. my INTP dad, who couldn't live without his planner with him at all times, and all the stories I've heard about INFPs acting ESTJ).
But on to the T women part! I wish I could help you on this one, but I feel like I would have to be one of those women in order to do so. I was lucky enough to grow up in a family that didn't care about gender roles at all, so I played with the boys, and even now I don't care at all about how women "should" or "shouldn't" act. I dunno about other T women, but I don't feel any pressure at all to act F. My mom's an INFJ, even! It's just... not me. Sorry - that probably wasn't the least bit helpful.
 

EJCC

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:huh:

I cannot understand your approach that seems to say that the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts, and that A does not equal A.

At least you succeeded in muddying the water ;)

Well, it IS (kind of) equal to the sum of its parts, but there's much more to it than that. I wish this worked like math :nerd: but I don't really think it does.
 
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<estj-self-advertising>
I'm here! I just don't post here very much. Cool to know I'm needed (even though I kind of think that "estj" and "woman's touch" is an oxymoron)! Thank you! (btw, the ".02" thing was very clever :)) Is there anything you want to know? I'm here if anyone has questions about anything ESTJ-related!
</estj-self-advertising>

Also... (cue epic fail at quoting):
"what is a common theme among types that may not be so obvious especially T women who seem F because of conditioning? being female/ growing up around F's etc."
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. But I will say that everybody is affected by the types that surround them. There are a bunch of threads here that reference cultural effects on people, making them seem like a type that they're not. I know that loads of people act like a different type as a survival mechanism with regard to their career (e.g. my INTP dad, who couldn't live without his planner with him at all times, and all the stories I've heard about INFPs acting ESTJ).
But on to the T women part! I wish I could help you on this one, but I feel like I would have to be one of those women in order to do so. I was lucky enough to grow up in a family that didn't care about gender roles at all, so I played with the boys, and even now I don't care at all about how women "should" or "shouldn't" act. I dunno about other T women, but I don't feel any pressure at all to act F. My mom's an INFJ, even! It's just... not me. Sorry - that probably wasn't the least bit helpful.

:hi:

ahhh yess that's another very good point you brought up about how people put different faces cause of there career needing them to portray that.
didn't even think of that. makes a load of sense cause they probably develop those functions that are needed to do there career and i'm glad you decided to mention that.

no it was helpful...thank you :hug: It feels good to hear that your true self wasn't shyed away and were able to be yourself that's great to hear. Nice to hear those stories too.
 

Jaguar

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:hi:

ahhh yess that's another very good point you brought up about how people put different faces cause of there career needing them to portray that.
didn't even think of that. makes a load of sense cause they probably develop those functions that are needed to do there career and i'm glad you decided to mention that.

Dutchess--

While the female ESTJ mentioned INFPs being ESTJ-like,
I don't find that to be intentionally misleading,
I find it to be an expression of truth--the other side of their coin.
We all have two sides, do we not?

This may seem like a rapid digression of thought but,
take Jeffrey Dahmer--the prince of darkness on the inside--was actually described as a "nice guy" by his neighbors.
Hard for people like you and I to fathom, but there's the two sides of the coin.
And those two sides can reach amazing extremes.

Now watch, some nut will come along and think I'm bringing up Dahmer,
to suggest I think there is a connection to an INFP-ESTJ dichotomy.

Nothing would surprise me on this crazy board!:D
 

Xander

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:huh:

I cannot understand your approach that seems to say that the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts, and that A does not equal A.

At least you succeeded in muddying the water ;)
The whole includes not all of it's base parts but neither is it limited by them. Each and every type is I+E+S+N+F+T+J+P, each element to some degree.

As for A not equalling A, well you're an INTP and so am I. Want to bet we're almost nothing alike? Sure in terms of MBTI we are similar but as a whole person we are still very different.
 

Xander

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hey yeah you got a point there usually what is on the forum hear is intp's usually type on enneagram 5,6. I definitely think an INTP 9 is possible and can happen just like those infp's who say there type 8 (seriously) I'm going to take there word for it and there's nothing wrong with going outside the box of what is accepted. Also they know themselves better then i or anyone else ever could so I would believe them (not blindly but you know )
Well in theory there's nothing wrong with any MBTI - Enneagram combination. INFP8, sure why not? My INFP friends can be quite bossy when it comes to their creations, they certainly lose the whole laid back mystic very quickly :D
* see that's what i'm talking about, environmental influences add to the individual representation. it's nice to add to the melting pot . So being brought up in a family of J's I'm assuming can rub off there J-ness onto you ?
To a certain extent yes. I'm looked to for plans by most of my social group (despite protestations) and actually one INFP said to me that he personally looked to me for a plan and was prepared to follow my lead because I come up with ideas that suit everyone. How un-INTP do I sound now?
I know it has for me but it's not natural or preferred it just comes in handy. I find i'm alittle bit more towards just getting a task done and over with. Lately instead of when i was in middle school and would wait till the last minute I learned that's going to just create more stress so J-ness help me out hehe.
Middle school? Jinkies... not many of those left. Well in the smoke there isn't, the sticks is another story. Anyhow, yeah it's never as easy as your own preferences but it comes in damn handy. I can predict time schedules. Hell if I leave my ESTP wife at home I even arrive on time!! (She has a whole separate time zone like GMT -30 minues.)
* you mean as whole, functions working together ? Absolutely that could be just why some people have such a hard time typing themselves were humans were never going to fit under one type that's it end of the line yadda yadda. I know for me I have developed Ti hugely alongside Fi Te is the weakest but i fit now that i look at it more and more ISFP preferences but it's like you said with your type I'm isfp but isfp isn't me. that makes it feel so much more open to interpretation I like that. Hopefully people who are trying to pick there type will realize that it's not all cut and dry. Someone told me on hear also that there all sorts of variations of types no one is going to be like the other. Also I'm going to say *just my opinion* I wish people didn't try to compare that certain types belong in this type on the enneagram. Two seperate systems maybe there is more of a chance of type being an E6/E2 etc but that doesn't mean it's all only that one way. Really can be deceiving cause me being a 6 made me think I must be isfj for example (oh no lol far from it) now that's just my opinion .
Ooo you're crossing into another pet peeve... Fe and Fi are one function with two attitude notes. Realistically Fe + Fi (if it were to be measured properly) should be 100% (I think). Personally I reject the idea that the F in Fi and Fe is different, only where it is employed changes, not the function itself.

Btw, ISFP... ENTJ!!!! Shall I just nod and agree now? :newwink:

Anyhow, your mistake with enneagram and MBTI is seemingly the most common cause of mistyping and confusion. People expect the system to be prescriptive when it's descriptive. You can have any combination of enneagram and MBTI, it's all in how they work together that describes you.

In my little circle of people I know of many such examples, there's the ENFP who can hide away for weeks and isn't very bothered about socialising unless it's about him, there's the ENFJ who will tell you to your face (about 2 inches from it in fact) that she doesn't give two balls of ice cream what you think, then there's the ENTJ who tend to look very much the field marshal type but is actually wounded deeply when people disapprove of him. Then of course there's me, the INTP who can usually out talk most extraverts and yet also stay quite happily in my little cave for days but then go out with about a dozen people and be all loud and huggy.

Let's face it, the entire human race is all screwed up. No amount of attempts at classification is ever going to cover all the eventualities and at the end of the day each person is an individual and so should approach any and all systems of classification with the attitude that it will NOT describe them with any real sense of clarity and not to accept things blindly.
why thank you Xander that means alot I'm glad you find it refreshing cause sometimes i wonder if i'm coming across in a clear objective way (i'm kind of scattered ) I never want to assume something or get to stuck/attached on an idea/type/theory etc.
Yay!!!! I'm being objective.
I always had that objectivity too despite being an F which i think brings to light the whole nurture thing I seriously wouldn't be surprised if my Ti developed to near strength as my Fi like they work together in a way checking each other for inconsistencies. Which could make since why I agree with alot of Ti dominant's on some discussions especially with Fe inferior. (my Fe needs quite a bit of work xD thankfully I have an ISFJ mother/2 sisters/ and an ISFJ friend to assist me in Fe ness ). Thank you so much Xander. Apologize if i'm all over the place in my writing style
All over the place in your writing style? You should have seen my earlier posts on INTP Central. Hell I can't follow some of them!

Anyway I tend to find the scattered posters are often the more moderate and well considered. It takes a level of blinkering to be certain, to be objective/ fair you have to try to be all encompassing and that leads to much hopping about.

Of course the aim is to be clearly unclear in a deliberate fashion, but that's waaayy too much like hard work most of the time :happy:
 
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