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  1. #51
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    INTP is not I+N+T+P, it is INTP. No more, no less.

    It does include elements of I, but not all of them.
    It does include elements of N, but not all of them.
    It does include elements of T, but not all of them.
    It does include elements of P, but not all of them.
    It does include elements of NT, but not all of them.
    It does include elements of IP, but not all of them.
    It does include elements of NTP, but not all of them.

    I wish more people understood this. (great example...very clear )

    Oh and universally, INTP does not equal INTP either. I'm an INTP but INTP isn't me (that's how you kick stereotypes into touch).

    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself,
    (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
    Walt Whitman, "Song of Myself"
    US poet (1819 - 1892)
    -First seen as MacGuffin's signature like 6 years ago or something freaky like that!!

    I'm beginning to think that INTP as a type simply means INTP>ESFJ and that each paring represents a set of trait that people are then either closer to being INTP or ESFJ and get typed as such.

    {I hope this muddies the water sufficiently to make all things clear}
    thank you very much xander for sharing .
    Now when you say universally what do you mean by universally and intp does not equal intp. (could that be what you meant below about intp isn't you?)

    I think i get what you mean by your intp but intp isn't you. you as an individual define intp am i right? if so that makes alot of sense.

    And by INTP>ESFJ do you mean that some can be somewhere in the middle of those two types?
    thanks again Xander
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  2. #52
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    thank you very much xander for sharing .
    Now when you say universally what do you mean by universally and intp does not equal intp. (could that be what you meant below about intp isn't you?)

    I think i get what you mean by your intp but intp isn't you. you as an individual define intp am i right? if so that makes alot of sense.

    And by INTP>ESFJ do you mean that some can be somewhere in the middle of those two types?
    thanks again Xander
    Well I am an INTP and a lot can be learned about me by knowing my type but I am both more and less than the type suggests. What I'm saying, in essence but underlining it, is that I'm an individual and the type description only attempts to outline me in certain respects. Most people certainly don't expect a high energy INTP who's a 9 in enneagram. I confuse most people

    As for the whole INTP>ESFJ, both are part of who I am. Certain parts of the ESFJ type come through at points but in the main I am an INTP. Of course on top of this simplified view is the influences I've been exposed to like being brought up in a family of Js, having an ESTP wife, working with ESTJs and having many friends (most of whom seem to be NFs but the odd INTJ and ENTP certainly spices the mix ).

    I guess what I'm trying to get across is that S is nothing, T is nothing, P is nothing... they only mean something when brought into context. INTP>I+N+T+P. Also I'm trying to underline that the human condition would appear to be filled with contradiction and as such no type should be thought of as comprehensive. It's more like the blurb on the back of the book. Sure you identify with the book after having read some of it and then you re-read the blurb but it misses a lot of the content and should be considered sketchy at best.

    I must say though you direct approach to understanding this mess is most refreshing. You seem to have little in the way of constructed ideas to match things to. Heck you're being OBJECTIVE!!! There's one contradiction, an objective F. Not that such is unusual. I know a very militant and organised ENFP, though it's most certainly done in the most ... errm... individualistic manner
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #53
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Well I am an INTP and a lot can be learned about me by knowing my type but I am both more and less than the type suggests. What I'm saying, in essence but underlining it, is that I'm an individual and the type description only attempts to outline me in certain respects. Most people certainly don't expect a high energy INTP who's a 9 in enneagram. I confuse most people

    hey yeah you got a point there usually what is on the forum hear is intp's usually type on enneagram 5,6. I definitely think an INTP 9 is possible and can happen just like those infp's who say there type 8 (seriously) I'm going to take there word for it and there's nothing wrong with going outside the box of what is accepted. Also they know themselves better then i or anyone else ever could so I would believe them (not blindly but you know )

    As for the whole INTP>ESFJ, both are part of who I am. Certain parts of the ESFJ type come through at points but in the main I am an INTP. Of course on top of this simplified view is the influences I've been exposed to like being brought up in a family of Js, having an ESTP wife, working with ESTJs and having many friends (most of whom seem to be NFs but the odd INTJ and ENTP certainly spices the mix ). * see that's what i'm talking about, environmental influences add to the individual representation. it's nice to add to the melting pot . So being brought up in a family of J's I'm assuming can rub off there J-ness onto you ?
    I know it has for me but it's not natural or preferred it just comes in handy. I find i'm alittle bit more towards just getting a task done and over with. Lately instead of when i was in middle school and would wait till the last minute I learned that's going to just create more stress so J-ness help me out hehe.


    I guess what I'm trying to get across is that S is nothing, T is nothing, P is nothing... they only mean something when brought into context. INTP>I+N+T+P. Also I'm trying to underline that the human condition would appear to be filled with contradiction and as such no type should be thought of as comprehensive. It's more like the blurb on the back of the book. Sure you identify with the book after having read some of it and then you re-read the blurb but it misses a lot of the content and should be considered sketchy at best.

    * you mean as whole, functions working together ? Absolutely that could be just why some people have such a hard time typing themselves
    were humans were never going to fit under one type that's it end of the line yadda yadda. I know for me I have developed Ti hugely alongside Fi Te is the weakest but i fit now that i look at it more and more ISFP preferences but it's like you said with your type I'm isfp but isfp isn't me. that makes it feel so much more open to interpretation I like that. Hopefully people who are trying to pick there type will realize that it's not all cut and dry. Someone told me on hear also that there all sorts of variations of types no one is going to be like the other. Also I'm going to say *just my opinion* I wish people didn't try to compare that certain types belong in this type on the enneagram. Two seperate systems maybe there is more of a chance of type being an E6/E2 etc but that doesn't mean it's all only that one way. Really can be deceiving cause me being a 6 made me think I must be isfj for example (oh no lol far from it) now that's just my opinion .


    I must say though you direct approach to understanding this mess is most refreshing. You seem to have little in the way of constructed ideas to match things to. Heck you're being OBJECTIVE!!! There's one contradiction, an objective F. Not that such is unusual. I know a very militant and organised ENFP, though it's most certainly done in the most ... errm... individualistic manner
    why thank you Xander that means alot I'm glad you find it refreshing cause sometimes i wonder if i'm coming across in a clear objective way (i'm kind of scattered ) I never want to assume something or get to stuck/attached on an idea/type/theory etc.
    Yay!!!! I'm being objective.
    I always had that objectivity too despite being an F which i think brings to light the whole nurture thing I seriously wouldn't be surprised if my Ti developed to near strength as my Fi like they work together in a way checking each other for inconsistencies. Which could make since why I agree with alot of Ti dominant's on some discussions especially with Fe inferior. (my Fe needs quite a bit of work xD thankfully I have an ISFJ mother/2 sisters/ and an ISFJ friend to assist me in Fe ness ). Thank you so much Xander. Apologize if i'm all over the place in my writing style








    [/B]
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  4. #54
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post

    INTP is not I+N+T+P, it is INTP. No more, no less.

    Oh and universally, INTP does not equal INTP either. I'm an INTP but INTP isn't me (that's how you kick stereotypes into touch).


    I cannot understand your approach that seems to say that the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts, and that A does not equal A.

    At least you succeeded in muddying the water

  5. #55
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    This whole site in general needs a few opinionated ESTJs with a womans touch. Why are they so sparce? i'll bet they contemplate putting in their .02, but then read just one more post and go half nutzoid.
    <estj-self-advertising>
    I'm here! I just don't post here very much. Cool to know I'm needed (even though I kind of think that "estj" and "woman's touch" is an oxymoron)! Thank you! (btw, the ".02" thing was very clever ) Is there anything you want to know? I'm here if anyone has questions about anything ESTJ-related!
    </estj-self-advertising>

    Also... (cue epic fail at quoting):
    "what is a common theme among types that may not be so obvious especially T women who seem F because of conditioning? being female/ growing up around F's etc."
    I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. But I will say that everybody is affected by the types that surround them. There are a bunch of threads here that reference cultural effects on people, making them seem like a type that they're not. I know that loads of people act like a different type as a survival mechanism with regard to their career (e.g. my INTP dad, who couldn't live without his planner with him at all times, and all the stories I've heard about INFPs acting ESTJ).
    But on to the T women part! I wish I could help you on this one, but I feel like I would have to be one of those women in order to do so. I was lucky enough to grow up in a family that didn't care about gender roles at all, so I played with the boys, and even now I don't care at all about how women "should" or "shouldn't" act. I dunno about other T women, but I don't feel any pressure at all to act F. My mom's an INFJ, even! It's just... not me. Sorry - that probably wasn't the least bit helpful.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #56
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post


    I cannot understand your approach that seems to say that the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts, and that A does not equal A.

    At least you succeeded in muddying the water
    Well, it IS (kind of) equal to the sum of its parts, but there's much more to it than that. I wish this worked like math but I don't really think it does.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #57
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    <estj-self-advertising>
    I'm here! I just don't post here very much. Cool to know I'm needed (even though I kind of think that "estj" and "woman's touch" is an oxymoron)! Thank you! (btw, the ".02" thing was very clever ) Is there anything you want to know? I'm here if anyone has questions about anything ESTJ-related!
    </estj-self-advertising>

    Also... (cue epic fail at quoting):
    "what is a common theme among types that may not be so obvious especially T women who seem F because of conditioning? being female/ growing up around F's etc."
    I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. But I will say that everybody is affected by the types that surround them. There are a bunch of threads here that reference cultural effects on people, making them seem like a type that they're not. I know that loads of people act like a different type as a survival mechanism with regard to their career (e.g. my INTP dad, who couldn't live without his planner with him at all times, and all the stories I've heard about INFPs acting ESTJ).
    But on to the T women part! I wish I could help you on this one, but I feel like I would have to be one of those women in order to do so. I was lucky enough to grow up in a family that didn't care about gender roles at all, so I played with the boys, and even now I don't care at all about how women "should" or "shouldn't" act. I dunno about other T women, but I don't feel any pressure at all to act F. My mom's an INFJ, even! It's just... not me. Sorry - that probably wasn't the least bit helpful.


    ahhh yess that's another very good point you brought up about how people put different faces cause of there career needing them to portray that.
    didn't even think of that. makes a load of sense cause they probably develop those functions that are needed to do there career and i'm glad you decided to mention that.

    no it was helpful...thank you It feels good to hear that your true self wasn't shyed away and were able to be yourself that's great to hear. Nice to hear those stories too.
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  8. #58
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post


    ahhh yess that's another very good point you brought up about how people put different faces cause of there career needing them to portray that.
    didn't even think of that. makes a load of sense cause they probably develop those functions that are needed to do there career and i'm glad you decided to mention that.
    Dutchess--

    While the female ESTJ mentioned INFPs being ESTJ-like,
    I don't find that to be intentionally misleading,
    I find it to be an expression of truth--the other side of their coin.
    We all have two sides, do we not?

    This may seem like a rapid digression of thought but,
    take Jeffrey Dahmer--the prince of darkness on the inside--was actually described as a "nice guy" by his neighbors.
    Hard for people like you and I to fathom, but there's the two sides of the coin.
    And those two sides can reach amazing extremes.

    Now watch, some nut will come along and think I'm bringing up Dahmer,
    to suggest I think there is a connection to an INFP-ESTJ dichotomy.

    Nothing would surprise me on this crazy board!

  9. #59
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post


    I cannot understand your approach that seems to say that the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts, and that A does not equal A.

    At least you succeeded in muddying the water
    The whole includes not all of it's base parts but neither is it limited by them. Each and every type is I+E+S+N+F+T+J+P, each element to some degree.

    As for A not equalling A, well you're an INTP and so am I. Want to bet we're almost nothing alike? Sure in terms of MBTI we are similar but as a whole person we are still very different.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #60
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    hey yeah you got a point there usually what is on the forum hear is intp's usually type on enneagram 5,6. I definitely think an INTP 9 is possible and can happen just like those infp's who say there type 8 (seriously) I'm going to take there word for it and there's nothing wrong with going outside the box of what is accepted. Also they know themselves better then i or anyone else ever could so I would believe them (not blindly but you know )
    Well in theory there's nothing wrong with any MBTI - Enneagram combination. INFP8, sure why not? My INFP friends can be quite bossy when it comes to their creations, they certainly lose the whole laid back mystic very quickly
    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    * see that's what i'm talking about, environmental influences add to the individual representation. it's nice to add to the melting pot . So being brought up in a family of J's I'm assuming can rub off there J-ness onto you ?
    To a certain extent yes. I'm looked to for plans by most of my social group (despite protestations) and actually one INFP said to me that he personally looked to me for a plan and was prepared to follow my lead because I come up with ideas that suit everyone. How un-INTP do I sound now?
    I know it has for me but it's not natural or preferred it just comes in handy. I find i'm alittle bit more towards just getting a task done and over with. Lately instead of when i was in middle school and would wait till the last minute I learned that's going to just create more stress so J-ness help me out hehe.
    Middle school? Jinkies... not many of those left. Well in the smoke there isn't, the sticks is another story. Anyhow, yeah it's never as easy as your own preferences but it comes in damn handy. I can predict time schedules. Hell if I leave my ESTP wife at home I even arrive on time!! (She has a whole separate time zone like GMT -30 minues.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    * you mean as whole, functions working together ? Absolutely that could be just why some people have such a hard time typing themselves were humans were never going to fit under one type that's it end of the line yadda yadda. I know for me I have developed Ti hugely alongside Fi Te is the weakest but i fit now that i look at it more and more ISFP preferences but it's like you said with your type I'm isfp but isfp isn't me. that makes it feel so much more open to interpretation I like that. Hopefully people who are trying to pick there type will realize that it's not all cut and dry. Someone told me on hear also that there all sorts of variations of types no one is going to be like the other. Also I'm going to say *just my opinion* I wish people didn't try to compare that certain types belong in this type on the enneagram. Two seperate systems maybe there is more of a chance of type being an E6/E2 etc but that doesn't mean it's all only that one way. Really can be deceiving cause me being a 6 made me think I must be isfj for example (oh no lol far from it) now that's just my opinion .
    Ooo you're crossing into another pet peeve... Fe and Fi are one function with two attitude notes. Realistically Fe + Fi (if it were to be measured properly) should be 100% (I think). Personally I reject the idea that the F in Fi and Fe is different, only where it is employed changes, not the function itself.

    Btw, ISFP... ENTJ!!!! Shall I just nod and agree now?

    Anyhow, your mistake with enneagram and MBTI is seemingly the most common cause of mistyping and confusion. People expect the system to be prescriptive when it's descriptive. You can have any combination of enneagram and MBTI, it's all in how they work together that describes you.

    In my little circle of people I know of many such examples, there's the ENFP who can hide away for weeks and isn't very bothered about socialising unless it's about him, there's the ENFJ who will tell you to your face (about 2 inches from it in fact) that she doesn't give two balls of ice cream what you think, then there's the ENTJ who tend to look very much the field marshal type but is actually wounded deeply when people disapprove of him. Then of course there's me, the INTP who can usually out talk most extraverts and yet also stay quite happily in my little cave for days but then go out with about a dozen people and be all loud and huggy.

    Let's face it, the entire human race is all screwed up. No amount of attempts at classification is ever going to cover all the eventualities and at the end of the day each person is an individual and so should approach any and all systems of classification with the attitude that it will NOT describe them with any real sense of clarity and not to accept things blindly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    why thank you Xander that means alot I'm glad you find it refreshing cause sometimes i wonder if i'm coming across in a clear objective way (i'm kind of scattered ) I never want to assume something or get to stuck/attached on an idea/type/theory etc.
    Yay!!!! I'm being objective.
    I always had that objectivity too despite being an F which i think brings to light the whole nurture thing I seriously wouldn't be surprised if my Ti developed to near strength as my Fi like they work together in a way checking each other for inconsistencies. Which could make since why I agree with alot of Ti dominant's on some discussions especially with Fe inferior. (my Fe needs quite a bit of work xD thankfully I have an ISFJ mother/2 sisters/ and an ISFJ friend to assist me in Fe ness ). Thank you so much Xander. Apologize if i'm all over the place in my writing style
    All over the place in your writing style? You should have seen my earlier posts on INTP Central. Hell I can't follow some of them!

    Anyway I tend to find the scattered posters are often the more moderate and well considered. It takes a level of blinkering to be certain, to be objective/ fair you have to try to be all encompassing and that leads to much hopping about.

    Of course the aim is to be clearly unclear in a deliberate fashion, but that's waaayy too much like hard work most of the time
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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