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  1. #11
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I understand that the honeymoon dates back to the days of wife-stealing, when young bucks would steal a bride from another clan/tribe (in the interests of genetic diversity) and then hide out from the young lady's male relatives until such time as the new bride was thoroughly deflowered and hopefully pregnant. After that the bride's family would be forced to accept the marriage as a fait-accompli, and would thus be more willing to talk dowries instead of bloody reprisals. The groomsmen (best man & co) represented those men who would aid the groom in his kidnapping.

    It's all a bit debatable, but I am nonetheless in favour of tradition in the major ceremonies which remain to us because I've found that there usually are reasons for why things are done the way they are, even if that reason is outdated and mostly forgotten. Still, it's nice to think that we do still have some kind of link with ancestors we have no real way of identifying today. And some of those links are so refreshingly heathen.
    Oh for sure there are nice things to traditions and such but at what point does one persons idea of "what is nice" get converted into "what everyone must do or be derided"?

    The other parts of societies structure, like law, at least have some basis in universal good (no I'm no going to debate the validity of that term) but most of this stuff seems to be one posh Ahem's version of "perfection" which everyone else then mimics in some vain attempt to "keep up with the Jones' ".

    Personally, in reference to my own wedding, I'm paying so the Jones' can go jog off.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #12
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Personally, in reference to my own wedding, I'm paying so the Jones' can go jog off.
    Ahem.

  3. #13
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Well, some people don't get married in a formal ceremony, occasionally they just get married by a sheriff or something (or don't even marry at all), and that's happened for many years. Some people just don't go in for pomp and ceremony.

    Out of the people who do have formal weddings, it's probably to make some kind of symbolic statement about their commitment to the other person. It's probably also a chance to share with their families the point in time at which their life moves into a different stage. It used to be a much bigger deal, especially for women, because divorce was rare, and it was the time when they moved out of their father's house, and towards becoming mothers. It just carried over from the past, because people seem to need to feel a sense of direction and continuity via traditional symbols, because those symbols give them a way of expressing the enormity of their hopes and seriousness about the event.

    The ceremony doesn't make sense, but that's because it was carried over from religious traditions, which were filled with inane, ornate rituals. People engage in rituals to feel a sense of connection to something bigger than they are, I guess. It doesn't always really achieve or mean that, and it just becomes so ingrained in culture that it's continued just as an identity thing or for predictability. These rituals are probably particularly annoying to people who don't need such glaring symbols to understand connections and feelings.
    Oh granted that it's a left over from the religious ceremony. I just don't get why people insist that things like red roses are romantic or that wedding dresses are white and basically a curtain with a couple of safety pins to give it form. You get better designs out of supermarkets and yet people fall over themselves when around wedding dresses.

    How do people go from being told "this is true" to accepting it and yet they've never thought about it? Ever!!

    I swear that old people's homes where they use a ton of drugs and show no compassion are becoming the best analogies of society!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #14
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Well, look on the bright side. The fact that the majority of people are little more than well-trained Pavlovian dogs makes them SO much easier to manipulate, although it does make actually relating to them so much harder. Here's a trick: while you're going through the motions, and performing as expected, picture yourself throwing a Frisbee to a trained dog. When people respond the way you expect them to, imagine the dog returning it, and mentally pat them on the head and say, "Good boy!" You'll strangely feel a lot better.

    Does that help?

  5. #15
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Ahem.
    You mean "Amen" surely?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #16
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Well, look on the bright side. The fact that the majority of people are little more than well-trained Pavlovian dogs makes them SO much easier to manipulate, although it does make actually relating to them so much harder. Here's a trick: while you're going through the motions, and performing as expected, picture yourself throwing a Frisbee to a trained dog. When people respond the way you expect them to, imagine the dog returning it, and mentally pat them on the head and say, "Good boy!" You'll strangely feel a lot better.

    Does that help?
    Not really. They hate having their bellies rubbed half the time
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #17
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Fair enough, although Ni-Fe will look very much the same if they like the social tradition (and then they'll change/ignore the social traditions that they don't like).
    I'm Ni-Fe Doesn't sound like me as far as i know. Ni-Fe in my experience creates a very fluid approach to emotion that is in constant flux. It is as unlike Si-Fe as just about anything I know. But people consistently impose every single Si-Fe concept as being consistent with Ni-Fe. Oh well. People perceive as they will.

    edit: Ni-Fe is also extremely rare (infj's as less than 1% of the population) while Si-Fe is possibly the most common. This is a likely reason for the confusion./edit
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    True and that is what makes it all the more draining and irritating. You try and do something innovative and filled with forethought and care, all you get is queried as to why you didn't perform as per article 17 subsection B3 of the civilians handbook otherwise known as "How to make friends and influence people".
    Yup, I am with you there.

    But I only have so much energy in the world. So if they don't want my little personal touch and are happy with cookie-cutter connections, then fine. (And really, I am being sarcastic there. To them, it's not cookie-cutter, it's COMFORTING and standardized and secure. It's only cookie-cutter to me, because I like things to be unique and personal and that is not a requirement for them. So... that's how it goes. Different strokes and all that...)

    Anyhow I think I have a plan for my own wedding. Full plate and a nice sword (all romantic and stuff) then if anyone asks me to dance (aside from she who must be considered) or stand infront of too many photos, get's it
    Do what you want. It's your wedding. So what you and the bride say goes. It's the one day you can force everyone else to accommodate you.

    My solidly ISFJ sister btw did not get "weird" with her wedding in July but she definitely wasn't just cookie-cutter. They didn't even have a cake, because the groom doesn't like cake; they had the "wedding brownies and ice cream."

    So even within types there is still very much some flexibility to be found. I think the western world has been becoming more flexible (less SJ and more SP) over the last 30-40 years.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #19
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Okay I've now been to two weddings in three weeks and again I am amazed at the proliferation of non thought that is present in people as a whole. Something within society obviously requires a framework for them to live to. I'm not sure why they think that such a framework is required in such bright neon colours, nor why everyone should follow such frameworks.

    Anyhow the crux of my concern has been around the phrase "cause I said so". Within these weddings there seems to be an unending sprawl of "cause you do" going on. Those that know me know I'm looking into my own wedding at the moment and I'm starting to feel like going postal at some of these events!!!

    Where do people get the whole tradition thing from? They don't know why they do it, what it means, who started it, or anything. So the question remains "Why do they do it?????".

    Answers on a postcard to...
    No.
    I am not going to attend your wedding.

    Thank you for the invitation all the same.

  10. #20
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yup, I am with you there.

    But I only have so much energy in the world. So if they don't want my little personal touch and are happy with cookie-cutter connections, then fine. (And really, I am being sarcastic there. To them, it's not cookie-cutter, it's COMFORTING and standardized and secure. It's only cookie-cutter to me, because I like things to be unique and personal and that is not a requirement for them. So... that's how it goes. Different strokes and all that...)
    No idea how you do that. I find it too difficult not to try to enthuse them to my (and obviously better... honestly) way of thinking

    It's mostly cause I want inclusion to be honest. I want to be in the "in crowd" but I'll not sacrifice what I think is right to do it so I try to create circumstance where my version is the popular one.

    It never works but I live by the sabre toothed squirrels code


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Do what you want. It's your wedding. So what you and the bride say goes. It's the one day you can force everyone else to accommodate you.
    Oooo bad move sir. It's just not cricket!!

    The wedding day is the day you have to shut everyone else up and to make your bride cry as all the stories her parents told her came true as some sort of reward for following their schemes.

    You HAVE to have the two doting lesbians (well they do look like it I mean come on) or the nagging priest/ vicar. You HAVE to have a WHITE dress. The page boys HAVE to be too young to pee by themselves. The bridesmaids should be too young to think that my little pony is cheap plastic rubbish and the best man HAS to be an arse with enough charisma to sink a hash party and yet has a voice loud enough to warn boats in china of the dover cliffs. It's all part of "Your big day" <cheesey grin>

    AK47 anyone?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My solidly ISFJ sister btw did not get "weird" with her wedding in July but she definitely wasn't just cookie-cutter. They didn't even have a cake, because the groom doesn't like cake; they had the "wedding brownies and ice cream."
    You should have seen the reactions I got to the idea of a barbecue in a field in scotland instead of a sit down trough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So even within types there is still very much some flexibility to be found. I think the western world has been becoming more flexible (less SJ and more SP) over the last 30-40 years.
    Hmm not sure about that one.

    When's it go more N? In my lifetime?? Puhlease???
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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