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Ne and Emergent Leadership.

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
It's a pain in the ass because it looks like the maintenance of the status quo. Is it?

It's where, I guess, meanings and possibilities are discovered in the moment and suggestions are made. I suppose directions are uncovered. Plans are altered. New guidance is ... floated as a possibility.

NPs and their in-directives... what's up with that?
 

CJ99

Is Willard in Footloose!!
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Jan 5, 2009
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582
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ENTP
Can you rephrase the question clearer?
i have a vague idea of what your talking bout but not entirly sure what the question is!
 

Ardea

o edward cullen!
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729
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enfp
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7
Are you talking about vague-ness and off the wall ideas from NPs?
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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I'm talking about, why don't TJs rule? TJs, and moi, are full of directives and instructions and insistence and petulance, and NPs are cruising along not being directed. Why not?

(Remember, I'm using Te to work this out, so I work it out in terms of what actions happen and what actions don't.)

What's more, NPs do create things. Things do get done. Eventually. So, there is a direction to NP action. And sometimes (every time?) other people do get carried along with what happens. Thus, NPs, whether they like it or not, do lead. How?
 

silverchris9

New member
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Jan 20, 2009
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71
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ENFP
My theory:

Figuring out cause-and-effect takes too long. You'd probably get there eventually, but it'd take *forever*. NPs guess and get it right, so people follow us 'cause we get there first. Then TJs come back along and fix it up so that it works and people besides the NP leader can actually perpetuate/actualize it. Otherwise you end up with crazy organizations where the leader is a visionary and, sure, stuff gets done, but it can't be perpetuated without the leader, and the only one really able to carry out the vision is the leader, so the NP is off coming up with crazy NP ideas, but since he/she's also the only one that can implement them (not even considering the question of whether or not they're feasible), and without his/her direct hand on every project it tends to fail.

The direction of NP action is towards a vision. Towards is just very vague, but it's a direction. Also, people follow NPs because they keep getting it right. They put their hand on a project and *poof* it's a success. People get disappointed when they find out that the NP is *going* to follow his or her intuition to the next vision, and doesn't care as much about sustainability, feasibility and other necessary things.

That's my observation from working around/under a very successful NP leader.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Messages
4,310
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I believe I shall go ahead and make something up, and furthermore I shall treat the functions as if they are discrete objects. Suck it up, ya Marys.

ENFP: Ne shows them all the possibilities. Fi selects possibilities according to values. Te pops out some suggestive direction weakened to in-directive form because Ne is dominant and certainty will never be privileged over possibility. The direction will be about things (Te) in the world (Te) and how they should (Fi) be used (Te). (Which sounds like a lot of Te use, but it isn't, it's just a kind of output.) And if they ever want to check out if they're right, or actively promote Fi development, they'll tell some Si story. And that's how ENFPs get to be group Champions, by promoting a values focus.

INFP: something similar, except the Si story is the first output before some Te reality check. Or something. And that's how they get to be one-on-one Healers, by describing values as they appear to be in themselves.

And you can't be Champions or Healers without influencing people, so you're leading.


NTPs... who knows? Where the NFPs have a values focus, NTPs get adamant about tracking truth? (I says "tracking" because again Ne isn't going to be loving certainty, even if Ti is sure of the intermediate steps.)



Somebody! Anybody! Confirm or deny. I'm a TJ and I have the reputation of your big function in my grubby hands. I will shape it into a origami chicken of you don't throw some doubt over this fire.
 

the state i am in

Active member
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Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
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infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
i think silverchris said it best. speed, they get there first, and when they fuck up, they're usually very quick to recover, so they get to the recovery plan next, too. tertiary Te for enfps only helps them work out their solutions in a more streamlined way. plus extraverted charisma/practice helps enps win people over in ways that have nothing to do with cognition, but have everything to do with making people buy into what is going on (which matters much in the overall success of anything).

when tjs lead, they had damn well better have their shit worked out first, contingency plans, detailed analyses, bar graphs, etc. entjs are usually successful leaders in my experience. inxx leaders are usually quiet and more globally directive than interpersonally charismatic. intjs are great at working out details and pairing away waste, getting rid of inefficiency, cleaning up steps, etc.

leadership is more natural for enps, but that doesn't mean the conclusions they reach are necessarily any better (cognitively speaking). it depends on the whole context of the situation, they are just often better at getting results to happen quickly, stay attentive to the possibilities of the moment, whereas njs take a lot longer to sift thru details and come to the JUDGMENTS they feel are most valid. perceiving functions and judging functions are both necessary aspects of intelligent cognition.
 

entropie

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I believe I shall go ahead and make something up, and furthermore I shall treat the functions as if they are discrete objects. Suck it up, ya Marys.

ENFP: Ne shows them all the possibilities. Fi selects possibilities according to values. Te pops out some suggestive direction weakened to in-directive form because Ne is dominant and certainty will never be privileged over possibility. The direction will be about things (Te) in the world (Te) and how they should (Fi) be used (Te). (Which sounds like a lot of Te use, but it isn't, it's just a kind of output.) And if they ever want to check out if they're right, or actively promote Fi development, they'll tell some Si story. And that's how ENFPs get to be group Champions, by promoting a values focus.

INFP: something similar, except the Si story is the first output before some Te reality check. Or something. And that's how they get to be one-on-one Healers, by describing values as they appear to be in themselves.

And you can't be Champions or Healers without influencing people, so you're leading.


NTPs... who knows? Where the NFPs have a values focus, NTPs get adamant about tracking truth? (I says "tracking" because again Ne isn't going to be loving certainty, even if Ti is sure of the intermediate steps.)



Somebody! Anybody! Confirm or deny. I'm a TJ and I have the reputation of your big function in my grubby hands. I will shape it into a origami chicken of you don't throw some doubt over this fire.

You are right, NPs rule indeed more than its good for others. The thing is though, it takes an open mind to find that truth out and now that you have, why do you think NJs cant be good rulers aswell ?
 

Qre:us

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It's a pain in the ass because it looks like the maintenance of the status quo. Is it?

It's where, I guess, meanings and possibilities are discovered in the moment and suggestions are made. I suppose directions are uncovered. Plans are altered. New guidance is ... floated as a possibility.

NPs and their in-directives... what's up with that?


Maybe the concreteness of an end/a final goal, limits the lead(s) it takes to get there?
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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You are right, NPs rule indeed more than its good for others. The thing is though, it takes an open mind to find that truth out and now that you have, why do you think NJs cant be good rulers aswell ?

Oh, NJs are rulers whether they like it or not too. Hung around with an ENTJ long enough to know this.

But... I'm mister Chart-the-Course, supposedly paired by duality with NPs, ergo I'm figuring out what I'm supposed to tell you guys. (Works out great if you tell me first and then I tell you better.)

Everyone influences other people in some way, it seems, and has some suitable responsibility to do it right, so what's suitably right? NJs have little choice but to lay down the law because that's how they speak and think. NPs...
 

Synarch

Once Was
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NJ's are managers and maintainers. NP's rush in and get things going. So, they're like the vanguard whereas NJ's are the rear guard or walking with the rest of the troop.
 

entropie

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Well I dont have much experience with INTJ, I until today managed to stay out of their ways.

Maybe, NPs shall think about the thing and than stick to the decision and show the NJ that they love it ! If thats all, I can do that
 
V

violaine

Guest
... NJ's are the rear guard or walking with the rest of the troop.

Hmm, or the NJ planned the entire thing and are at the head of the column! :) (I'm thinking of Napoleon, ENTJ I believe. I'm sure there are workplace 'Napoleons'.) I guess every type will define leadership according to the way they lead though...
 

entropie

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Hmm, or the NJ planned the entire thing and are at the head of the column! :) (I'm thinking of Napoleon, ENTJ I believe. I'm sure there are workplace 'Napoleons'.) I guess every type will define leadership according to the way they lead though...

But that would bring us back to NP thinking, namely its not important who is the head as long as the head is a good head. (what has proven to be not changeable if you wait too long) -.-
 

Kalach

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NJ's are managers and maintainers. NP's rush in and get things going. So, they're like the vanguard whereas NJ's are the rear guard or walking with the rest of the troop.

Yep, that's where you'll find the INTJs, hanging out with the guys or strolling along following everyone else.
The NPs are in the vanguard so we're all off to Wendy's for milkshakes.
It's waaaaay better than fast food, you know.


The alt.view says NPs rush in and get things going, so they're like the vanguard. For a little bit. Then there's other stuff going on.

But, then again, I do recall the suggestion that INTJs are impressionable. Maybe we are a lot more malleable than we think and you guys are leading us.


To Wendy's?
 

speculative

Feelin' FiNe
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Yup, I agree with what's been said. I started a whole new division at my company within the last 2 years that's now nearly as big as a division that's been there for over 10 years. My boss & I talked and he took me out of the direct management of it because he wants me to keep doing things like starting new divisions etc. At least I think. Because he's a P, and us zany Ps like to change our direction now & then. :D

Seriously though, we have a whole 'lotta P action going on at the very top of our management team, and it is indeed a wacky world to operate in. Trying to get a decision made? It's like that old say, "Management is like a bar of soap, the harder you grasp it the more quickly it slips through your fingers.

I have seen the link posted on here somewhere about the tertiary temptation. It's really great material, and speaks to my INFP-ness more than anything I've read actually thus far. The suggestion for avoiding the tertiary temptation is the definition of how to succeed as an NP leader. I just can't remember what it is exactly. (I'll look it up later, too late at night now... Zzzz...)

For me, I get ideas about possibilities so quickly that I analyze them inside my head before I verbalize them, then I analyze them while I verbalize them (I can't finish a sentence without saying, "Oh but then we have to take this over here into consideration and if we actually do that it's another 6 weeks but we'll get added functionality ahead of our top 3 competitors, but actually we could do that and then move on from there.") and then I analyze them while other people are probably trying to communicate back at me (I see their lips moving but I hear my internal analysis :p ) and then I continue to analyze possibilities after they're done responding and I've already judged the situation into a new set of possibilities that may match or negate what was previously discussed 5 seconds ago in this process.

Due to this constant flow of possibilities, I do find it difficult to not do everything myself. When parts of the process flow are outsourced, I can't link up to possibilities. I would say possibilities are my greatest strength; the routine bores me to death and technically those things in the world that are routine are either 1. getting outsources overseas or 2. getting computerized so that work is basically going away as a valued entity. A computer is not so good at finding "possibilities," at least not "good" ones. (This is related to pattern recognition if I'm not mistaken.) My biggest crusade in the office is getting everyone from line staff to management to explore possibilities rather than taking a clock-puncher attitude toward work each day.

I think my boss is an ESFP (he's an extroverted, sensing, feeling, perceiver - don't pay attention to me though I can't type people as I don't believe in having BOTH a 4-letter system AND functions - c'mon people CHOOSE ONE OR THE OTHER FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! :D Or, I'll replace functions with "rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock." :p ) Ok, so I'll be Ne'ing him and he'll sit there and give me this eyes glazed-over look when I start negating my negation of a negation... in a single sentence. :D

I find the toughest part of Ne and leadership is communication. Probably not helped by my Fi at all.. :violin:
 

yenom

Alexander the Terrible
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Aug 3, 2008
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EP = disruptive leadership

EJ = anal retentive follow the rules and schedule leadership
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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I have seen the link posted on here somewhere about the tertiary temptation. It's really great material, and speaks to my INFP-ness more than anything I've read actually thus far. The suggestion for avoiding the tertiary temptation is the definition of how to succeed as an NP leader.

Sounds meaty. It works because you stay true to yourself?
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
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sp/sx
Oi, i agree.

I just about never use my tertiary at work (My tertiary explodes all over forums I'm on while I can be my NeTi leader self in real life.)
 
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