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  1. #1
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Default Ne and Emergent Leadership.

    It's a pain in the ass because it looks like the maintenance of the status quo. Is it?

    It's where, I guess, meanings and possibilities are discovered in the moment and suggestions are made. I suppose directions are uncovered. Plans are altered. New guidance is ... floated as a possibility.

    NPs and their in-directives... what's up with that?

  2. #2
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Can you rephrase the question clearer?
    i have a vague idea of what your talking bout but not entirly sure what the question is!
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  3. #3
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Are you talking about vague-ness and off the wall ideas from NPs?
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #4
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    no, no such BS.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  5. #5
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I'm talking about, why don't TJs rule? TJs, and moi, are full of directives and instructions and insistence and petulance, and NPs are cruising along not being directed. Why not?

    (Remember, I'm using Te to work this out, so I work it out in terms of what actions happen and what actions don't.)

    What's more, NPs do create things. Things do get done. Eventually. So, there is a direction to NP action. And sometimes (every time?) other people do get carried along with what happens. Thus, NPs, whether they like it or not, do lead. How?

  6. #6
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    My theory:

    Figuring out cause-and-effect takes too long. You'd probably get there eventually, but it'd take *forever*. NPs guess and get it right, so people follow us 'cause we get there first. Then TJs come back along and fix it up so that it works and people besides the NP leader can actually perpetuate/actualize it. Otherwise you end up with crazy organizations where the leader is a visionary and, sure, stuff gets done, but it can't be perpetuated without the leader, and the only one really able to carry out the vision is the leader, so the NP is off coming up with crazy NP ideas, but since he/she's also the only one that can implement them (not even considering the question of whether or not they're feasible), and without his/her direct hand on every project it tends to fail.

    The direction of NP action is towards a vision. Towards is just very vague, but it's a direction. Also, people follow NPs because they keep getting it right. They put their hand on a project and *poof* it's a success. People get disappointed when they find out that the NP is *going* to follow his or her intuition to the next vision, and doesn't care as much about sustainability, feasibility and other necessary things.

    That's my observation from working around/under a very successful NP leader.

  7. #7
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I believe I shall go ahead and make something up, and furthermore I shall treat the functions as if they are discrete objects. Suck it up, ya Marys.

    ENFP: Ne shows them all the possibilities. Fi selects possibilities according to values. Te pops out some suggestive direction weakened to in-directive form because Ne is dominant and certainty will never be privileged over possibility. The direction will be about things (Te) in the world (Te) and how they should (Fi) be used (Te). (Which sounds like a lot of Te use, but it isn't, it's just a kind of output.) And if they ever want to check out if they're right, or actively promote Fi development, they'll tell some Si story. And that's how ENFPs get to be group Champions, by promoting a values focus.

    INFP: something similar, except the Si story is the first output before some Te reality check. Or something. And that's how they get to be one-on-one Healers, by describing values as they appear to be in themselves.

    And you can't be Champions or Healers without influencing people, so you're leading.


    NTPs... who knows? Where the NFPs have a values focus, NTPs get adamant about tracking truth? (I says "tracking" because again Ne isn't going to be loving certainty, even if Ti is sure of the intermediate steps.)



    Somebody! Anybody! Confirm or deny. I'm a TJ and I have the reputation of your big function in my grubby hands. I will shape it into a origami chicken of you don't throw some doubt over this fire.

  8. #8
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i think silverchris said it best. speed, they get there first, and when they fuck up, they're usually very quick to recover, so they get to the recovery plan next, too. tertiary Te for enfps only helps them work out their solutions in a more streamlined way. plus extraverted charisma/practice helps enps win people over in ways that have nothing to do with cognition, but have everything to do with making people buy into what is going on (which matters much in the overall success of anything).

    when tjs lead, they had damn well better have their shit worked out first, contingency plans, detailed analyses, bar graphs, etc. entjs are usually successful leaders in my experience. inxx leaders are usually quiet and more globally directive than interpersonally charismatic. intjs are great at working out details and pairing away waste, getting rid of inefficiency, cleaning up steps, etc.

    leadership is more natural for enps, but that doesn't mean the conclusions they reach are necessarily any better (cognitively speaking). it depends on the whole context of the situation, they are just often better at getting results to happen quickly, stay attentive to the possibilities of the moment, whereas njs take a lot longer to sift thru details and come to the JUDGMENTS they feel are most valid. perceiving functions and judging functions are both necessary aspects of intelligent cognition.

  9. #9
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I believe I shall go ahead and make something up, and furthermore I shall treat the functions as if they are discrete objects. Suck it up, ya Marys.

    ENFP: Ne shows them all the possibilities. Fi selects possibilities according to values. Te pops out some suggestive direction weakened to in-directive form because Ne is dominant and certainty will never be privileged over possibility. The direction will be about things (Te) in the world (Te) and how they should (Fi) be used (Te). (Which sounds like a lot of Te use, but it isn't, it's just a kind of output.) And if they ever want to check out if they're right, or actively promote Fi development, they'll tell some Si story. And that's how ENFPs get to be group Champions, by promoting a values focus.

    INFP: something similar, except the Si story is the first output before some Te reality check. Or something. And that's how they get to be one-on-one Healers, by describing values as they appear to be in themselves.

    And you can't be Champions or Healers without influencing people, so you're leading.


    NTPs... who knows? Where the NFPs have a values focus, NTPs get adamant about tracking truth? (I says "tracking" because again Ne isn't going to be loving certainty, even if Ti is sure of the intermediate steps.)



    Somebody! Anybody! Confirm or deny. I'm a TJ and I have the reputation of your big function in my grubby hands. I will shape it into a origami chicken of you don't throw some doubt over this fire.
    You are right, NPs rule indeed more than its good for others. The thing is though, it takes an open mind to find that truth out and now that you have, why do you think NJs cant be good rulers aswell ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #10
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It's a pain in the ass because it looks like the maintenance of the status quo. Is it?

    It's where, I guess, meanings and possibilities are discovered in the moment and suggestions are made. I suppose directions are uncovered. Plans are altered. New guidance is ... floated as a possibility.

    NPs and their in-directives... what's up with that?

    Maybe the concreteness of an end/a final goal, limits the lead(s) it takes to get there?

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