Opposite 1st and 4th dominant functions.

[Park]

I was wondering if types with opposite 1st and 4th dominant functions would be likely to misunderstand and distrust each other more than other types with opposite functions appearing in any other hierachy.

I'm an INTP (1st Ti and 4th Fe). I do understand Fe but both using it and receiving it exhausts me quickly so my understanding probably doesn't equal the same genuine joy and appreciation as ESFJs/ENFJs (1st Fe and 4th Ti) experience when using and receiving Fe.

I could imagine ESFJs/ENFJs experience the same when using Ti. An understanding combined with a "cool function...great to use if you wish to analyze... but so what?" Perhaps it is the understanding combined with a relative lack of appreciation which can seem offensive. Sort of like - "You disregard what I value the most!".

Below, I listed types with 1st and 4th opposite dominant functions. It was the Fe threads which made me wonder if it the dominant presence of INTPs on this board had anything to do with Fe being disregarded. I also wonder if other types experience the same with their 1st and 4th function opposite types.

Te/Fi
ENTJ/ESTJ: 1st Te 4th Fi.
INFP/ISFP: 1st Fi 4th Te.

Ti/Fe
INTP/ISTP: 1st Ti 4th Fe.
ENFJ/ESFJ: 1st Fe 4th Ti.

Se/Ni
ESTP/ESFP: 1st Se 4th Ni.
INTJ/INFJ: 1st Ni 4th Se.

Si/Ne
ISTJ/ISFJ: 1st Si 4th Ne.
ENTP/ENFP: 1st Ne 4th Si.

 

[Sahara]

I find using my Te hard, infact at times I doubt I even have it.

 

[Totenkindly]

I use Fe decently and actually enjoy it now... but it has taken me a long time to get to this point (twenty years ago, it would almost make me vomit when I had to deal with ESFJ types for too long).

And even now, if I use it or are immersed in it too much, it starts to feel "wrong" to me, or hollow. I guess Ti is just in there chipping away at it.

Anyway, it can be developed, but it's just not as comfortable as my stronger functions.

 

[Park]

I find using my Te hard, infact at times I doubt I even have it.

How do you feel about Ti in comparison to Te?
I understand and make pretty good use of both Fi and Fe but while I enjoy using Fi, Fe exhausts me.

 

[Athenian200]

I definitely dislike using Se, although I'm strongly aware of it. It's like "Yeah, I see the blue sky, I smell the flowers, who cares, it's boring?"

Interestingly, I value my tertiary a bit more than that, although INTP's still seem slightly miffed when I say that Ti is a form of analysis, since they see it as an ideal rather than a method of comprehension. (Never understood that part.)

 

["?"]

I was wondering if types with opposite 1st and 4th dominant functions would be likely to misunderstand and distrust each other more than other types with opposite functions appearing in any other hierachy.

I'm an INTP (1st Ti and 4th Fe). I do understand Fe but both using it and receiving it exhausts me quickly so my understanding probably doesn't equal the same genuine joy and appreciation as ESFJs/ENFJs (1st Fe and 4th Ti) experience when using and receiving Fe.

I think this depends on whose seccession you prescribe to. Lenore Thomson and others think that for an INTP, the secession goes as Ti-Ne-Fi-Se, with Si and Fe being 7th and 8th respectively.

 

[Sahara]

How do you feel about Ti in comparison to Te?
I understand and make pretty good use of both Fi and Fe but while I enjoy using Fi, Fe exhausts me.

I'm not sure, I still haven't got the hang of this all to be honest, I wouldn't even know what using Ti would feel like to make a comparison.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm not sure, I still haven't got the hang of this all to be honest, I wouldn't even know what using Ti would feel like to make a comparison.

Just look at the world and assess things without placing any values ("good/bad") on your answer. You just want to model the "nature of things" as in its true name/definition, not its value per se.

 

[proteanmix]

I notice my Ti when I'm working with my INFP boss. Her Te becomes obvious also.

I don't even know how to describe it...we're working on a problem and she is very A, B, C, D and I'm trying to take the problem apart. She's older than me so her Te is more mature than my Ti and so I look like a novice (at least I think I do). That's the only time I recognize using Ti. If it pops out at any other times it just does and I don't know it's happening. Hopefully the trail of dead in it's wake won't scare off any potential friends.

 

[Park]

I use Fe decently and actually enjoy it now... but it has taken me a long time to get to this point (twenty years ago, it would almost make me vomit when I had to deal with ESFJ types for too long).

And even now, if I use it or are immersed in it too much, it starts to feel "wrong" to me, or hollow. I guess Ti is just in there chipping away at it.

Anyway, it can be developed, but it's just not as comfortable as my stronger functions.

Skill and will, I think many INTPs have a decent amount of the first part but not the last part - perhaps because using the function doesn't make logically sense to them.

 

[Sahara]

Just look at the world and assess things without placing any values ("good/bad") on your answer. You just want to model the "nature of things" as in its true name/definition, not its value per se.

Haha that is just so hard, I don't think I could successfully use it, as all things fall into good/bad/don't care.

I was trying to read up about it, after I made that "is an enfp a fe" faux pas yesterday, I saw that Te was my 4th one and I was soooooo sad as I want that Ti.

EDIT: that might line up with your theory Park, as why would I want Ti over Te, unless I had issues with it.

 

[Park]

I definitely dislike using Se, although I'm strongly aware of it. It's like "Yeah, I see the blue sky, I smell the flowers, who cares, it's boring?"

Interestingly, I value my tertiary a bit more than that, although INTP's still seem slightly miffed when I say that Ti is a form of analysis, since they see it as an ideal rather than a method of comprehension. (Never understood that part.)

Nah, me neither. For me it's "just" a tool for analyzing as well - allthough a tool which I get high on and which keeps me awake at night.

"?" Quote:
I think this depends on whose seccession you prescribe to. Lenore Thomson and others think that for an INTP, the secession goes as Ti-Ne-Fi-Se, with Si and Fe being 7th and 8th respectively.

I'm not sure who's theory I referr to either - I just looked up the function hierachies on typelogic.

Sahara Quote:
I'm not sure, I still haven't got the hang of this all to be honest, I wouldn't even know what using Ti would feel like to make a comparison.

I bet you know what Ti is - you probably just have to link the experience of using it with the word. Creative Chaos helped me to do that with Fi. The words describing the function didn't make sense to me but once she used the description "feeling tones" it all started to make sense.

proteanmix I notice my Ti when I'm working with my INFP boss. Her Te becomes obvious also.

I don't even know how to describe it...we're working on a problem and she is very A, B, C, D and I'm trying to take the problem apart. She's older than me so her Te is more mature than my Ti and so I look like a novice (at least I think I do). That's the only time I recognize using Ti. If it pops out at any other times it just does and I don't know it's happening. Hopefully the trail of dead in it's wake won't scare off any potential friends.

As a 1st and 4th function opposite to me - how do you perceive Ti? Does it evoke the same feelings in you as using Fe does in me?

 

[Totenkindly]

Skill and will, I think many INTPs have a decent amount of the first part but not the last part - perhaps because using the function doesn't make logically sense to them.

huh.

I suppose the reason I bothered is that I eventually became convinced that Fe *was* important.

But I am a writer and a communicator, and I want to understand people. Not all INTPs are focused on those things. So to me, since many people operate off Fe, I didn't feel that I had a choice BUT to consider it important, if I am to have a balanced picture of human beings and also be able to speak a common language.

Haha that is just so hard, I don't think I could successfully use it, as all things fall into good/bad/don't care.

ha... and you see, this is the reason why I don't consider myself an INFP, despite in many ways being able to come across as one: It's not good/bad to me, it's accurate/inaccurate.

The words describing the function didn't make sense to me but once she used the description "feeling tones" it all started to make sense.

Feeling tones?

She's older than me so her Te is more mature than my Ti and so I look like a novice (at least I think I do). That's the only time I recognize using Ti. If it pops out at any other times it just does and I don't know it's happening.

So when you recognize Ti at work, does it make you nervous? Or feeling too detached, or cold? What negative emotions/thoughts do you associate with Ti, if any?

 

[Park]

EDIT: that might line up with your theory Park, as why would I want Ti over Te, unless I had issues with it.

I have a Fi fashination. When I eventually managed to define what it was, I practised the function all the time and it came easy. I used it a lot as a child before Ti pushed it away. For me, it's a mysterious sweet function which is essential for me when I work with design, colors, structure etc. Sometimes I have feelings in my heads which I can't express visually and I get frustrated.

 

[chatoyer]

My big question is what makes one value a weaker function? I think part of respecting & connecting to another person who is so different in personality/temperament is admiring & valuing the strong function in them while simultaneously acknowledging the limitations of that same function in oneself.

Is it growing up in an environment or working in an environment where that function is dominant? Or developing a relationship with a person with that function & seeing its value up close, & in how that function impacts oneself?

I know Ti is way down the list of functions for me, but I have valued that function since reading classic literature & noticing my attraction to that brooding, cerebral archetype--the Fe/Fi locked up in that Ti persona. Then I got in environments that valued Ti, like philosophy departments & reading groups, & finally in marrying an ENTP, I've had to develop that function to survive & communicate! In the end, I think I've developed that function, but what starts it all?

Is someone just going to say it's my Fi in overdrive, wanting to connect & valuing that function in my worldview? Perhaps!?

 

[Park]

huh.
I suppose the reason I bothered is that I eventually became convinced that Fe *was* important.

But I am a writer and a communicator, and I want to understand people. Not all INTPs are focused on those things. So to me, since many people operate off Fe, I didn't feel that I had a choice BUT to consider it important, if I am to have a balanced picture of human beings and also be able to speak a common language.

Yeah I know .

Feeling tones?

Like when you look at a nice picture or listen to e.g. classical music. You head fills up with feelings which are rich and many times impossible to describe with words so they are described as tones instead.

 

[Athenian200]

I'm not sure who's theory I referr to either - I just looked up the function hierachies on typelogic.

Actually, that would be the official/standard MBTI theory, which is based directly on Jung's theory. According to Jung, the introverted thinking type would repress Feeling the most, as it is the function most likely to interfere with thinking. And since he also says that whenever one function is in a particular introverted/extraverted attitude, the other must be in the opposite. Therefore, IxTP's would have Dominant Ti, and Inferior Fe. Furthermore, if it were supported by Sensing as an auxiliary, that would obviously have to be Extraverted, and the resulting Intuition would be Introverted. Supported by Intuition, it would be Extraverted Intuition.

So we get:

ISTP: Ti Se Ni Fe
INTP: Ti Ne Si Fe

Does that make sense?

 

[Totenkindly]

Like when you look at a nice picture or listen to e.g. classical music. You head fills up with feelings which are rich and many times impossible to describe with words so they are described as tones instead.

I guess I do not really get just simple tones at all... but as an instrumentalist, I am good at conveying feelings through music. I feel things when I play and convey emotions that cannot be articulated in words (sometimes I used to just sit with my eyes shut and play what I was feeling); and I used to be able to listen to music and have it generate emotions inside of me in turn. (Sadly, that part of me has been dead for some months, and I don't know if it will come back... I hope it does.)

I don't know if that is the same as what you are describing, though.

 

[Kaveri]

Actually, that would be the official/standard MBTI theory, which is based directly on Jung's theory. According to Jung, the introverted thinking type would repress Feeling the most, as it is the function most likely to interfere with thinking. And since he also says that whenever one function is in a particular introverted/extraverted attitude, the other must be in the opposite. Therefore, IxTP's would have Dominant Ti, and Inferior Fe. Furthermore, if it were supported by Sensing as an auxiliary, that would obviously have to be Extraverted, and the resulting Intuition would be Introverted. Supported by Intuition, it would be Extraverted Intuition.

[...]

Does that make sense?

I wonder how this speculation is grounded and whether it's been criticized a lot. It makes "mathematical sense" but not "psychological sense" to me.

I've been wondering about this possibly too much, but people keep referring to Jung and repeating what Jung has said, and not telling what supports this hypothesis.

And I mean the theory that says that if Fi, then Te, and if Ti, then Fe, and vice versa.

(Is this sort of questioning Te? Do I support the theory just now?)

 

[Totenkindly]

I've been wondering about this possibly too much, but people keep referring to Jung and repeating what Jung has said, and not telling what supports this hypothesis.

Well, exactly: Jung is being quoted as an authority.

So what made Jung's theories correct (or relevant), if they are, in the first place? That is definitely a burning question here.