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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, exactly: Jung is being quoted as an authority.

    So what made Jung's theories correct (or relevant), if they are, in the first place? That is definitely a burning question here.
    Isabel Briggs Myers's research did. Haven't you read "Gifts Differing"? There's a fascinating explanation in the Publisher's Foreward of how she researched and used Jung's theory to make sense of her observations. She did the research on her own, and found that Jung's theory fit her observations.

    That's why It's usually called the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, and not just Jungian theory.

  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    That's why It's usually called the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, and not just Jungian theory.

    I think the reason is because Myers completely mutated Jungs theory into something else (orders and functions and all that). As in, the whole type theory and everything else isn't Jung. Jung worked from archetypes, functional theory wasn't central to his work.

    I'm not sure MBTI and Jungian theory are at all related anymore. IMO, they completely seperated the day that factor analysis was performed on MBTI (Step II creation). I'm not even sure "MBTI" is related to "MBTI" at this rate - Step III, although preserving the J/P attitude relationship, is even under attack.

  3. #23
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    And how is the function order theory grounded? Not by whom, but how? I don't have access to those expensive books that can be purchased online and that are said to explain it all. :/

    Why are there no empirical laboratory tests made to support the theory test the hypothesis that Fi and Te are paired, and that Fe and Ti are paired? I'm under the impression that MBTI sells quite well, so one would think that they could afford some laboratory tests.

  4. #24
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I'll admit that the impulsiveness of EST/FPs can really get to me. It's frustrating to me that they can't anticipate (or just don't care) about the long term consequences of an action but only care about getting what the want right now (which they are very good at doing). OTOH, I do enjoy my own little hedonistic pleasures from time to time.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  5. #25
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaveri View Post
    And how is the function order theory grounded? Not by whom, but how? I don't have access to those expensive books that can be purchased online and that are said to explain it all. :/

    Why are there no empirical laboratory tests made to support the theory test the hypothesis that Fi and Te are paired, and that Fe and Ti are paired? I'm under the impression that MBTI sells quite well, so one would think that they could afford some laboratory tests.
    Functional order theory is... how do you say... either "not testable" (ie: cannot determine it at the biological level)... or tested as "completely random" outside of main trait groupings. Same goes with functional attitudes (except that in those cases, it's a conjunction of (N/S or T/F) and J/P, both of which are traits with interactive themes).

    I don't know if CAPT has produced any real research into it - I do know that it's being done now with the introduction of Step III, but I don't follow that. It'll be interesting to see how they get around the studies showing no grounding at all.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post


    I guess I do not really get just simple tones at all... but as an instrumentalist, I am good at conveying feelings through music. I feel things when I play and convey emotions that cannot be articulated in words (sometimes I used to just sit with my eyes shut and play what I was feeling); and I used to be able to listen to music and have it generate emotions inside of me in turn. (Sadly, that part of me has been dead for some months, and I don't know if it will come back... I hope it does.)

    I don't know if that is the same as what you are describing, though.
    I'm sure it's the same. Letting oneself slide into heavy Fi mode. Not lucid dreaming but something similar - very rich and satisfying. I don't think really good music can be created without it.
    Sometimes when we have a lot on our minds, the things which are not that essential for our existance gets pushed into the background. Perhaps it will return when you have less on your mind.
    Verbal IQ Test

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    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  7. #27
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    One of the things that keep me coming back to MBTI time and time again is the allure of the functions--the fact that they're neither solidly defined by most people nor put into a unanimously agreed order, yet at the same time, what we do know of the functions seem to manifest themselves in everyday life.

    The problem is, I'm not sure if I see the functions' roles in everyday life because I am actively seeking them, or if they are really there and I am detecting the pattern laid by their presence.

  8. #28
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    As a 1st and 4th function opposite to me - how do you perceive Ti? Does it evoke the same feelings in you as using Fe does in me?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So when you recognize Ti at work, does it make you nervous? Or feeling too detached, or cold? What negative emotions/thoughts do you associate with Ti, if any?
    I don't feel anxious when Ti is being used around me. The only time I feel negative towards Ti within myself is when I'm angry and I start become petty and critical. Both of my siblings are Ti dominant (sis IStP, bro INTP) so I've been around it my whole life.

    When I use Ti negatively, I start delineating in explicit detail everything that I find wrong with the other person or the situation. I get very critical and stubborn, and picky. Negative Ti, for me, reacts more quickly than Ti that I have to consciously try to use. I think I use my Ti on Ni and I rarely use it on Fe. Fe is Empress of the Kingdom and whenever she's senses Ti within a one mile radius she uh...doesn't react well (heads will roll ). The only way to sneak Ti into the throne room is when Ni smuggles it in.

    A Day in Kingdom proteanmix

    Empress Fe disdains Street Philosopher Ti because he's rough around the edges, has no etiquette and sometimes smells like cheese. CEO of Internal Affairs Ni and Street Philosopher Ti (or Ti, St. PhD) get along very well with each other and they have lunch everyday at 1 (when Empress Fe is getting her manicure/pedicure).

    After lunch, (around 2 when Empress Fe is making her third wardrobe change of the day), Ni and Ti always go to a private conference room where it's just the two of them and Ni tells her admin assistant to hold all calls. Then they start getting down to business. Ni will say, "Hey, Empress Fe did something I think is damn stupid but I don't know how to show her what she did was wrong. She's not unreasonable and I know if I present my case in the right way she'll see the error of her ways. Can you help me?" Ti listens patiently and nods his head. And then he starts talking, telling Ni how to present her case. (BTW, Ti keeps cheese in his pockets because he thinks Empress Fe is a little snobby and he knows that she prefers the calming aroma of lavender so that way she'll stay the hell away from him).

    Empress Fe notices that Ni is missing and then she panics and calls Executioner Se. Whenever eXtSe comes around, all hell breaks loose. Se starts telling Fe to act swiftly and without mercy. Fe bites her fingernails (ruining her manicure) because CEO of Internal Affairs Ni is missing. She really relies on her a lot. Empress Fe knows that sometimes she gets caught up in the trappings of the court. It's fun and and she can do it on autopilot, but sometimes things get out of control. Ni usually steps in (with ideas fleshed out with Ti; Empress Fe knows they have lunch everyday but she likes to keep Ni happy so she allows it) but Ni is gone! eXtSe isn't as bad he sounds. He keeps the queen in stitches and Empress Fe has noticed that whenever eXtSe brings her a drink when they go out, very strange patterns and shapes start dancing in front of her eyes. She doesn't think to hard about that.

    Just in the nick of time, when eXtSe has persuaded Empress Fe to do something that she'll regret, Ni runs in with a solution! Crisis averted. Empress Fe is feeling magnanimous and invites Street Philosopher to go out clubbing with them, on conditions that he takes a bath and puts on the clothes she tells him to. Ti, St. PhD tells her to fuck off and Empress Fe is about to take his head, but Ni steps in again and Ti runs out into the moonlight, while eXtSe wears a sad sad face. He just missed out on some serious blood and gore.

    (Unbeknownst to everyone, Empress Fe and Ti, St. PhD have been carrying on a love affair for quite a few years and they're secretly in love).

    The End
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I'm sure it's the same. Letting oneself slide into heavy Fi mode. Not lucid dreaming but something similar - very rich and satisfying.
    I tend to see Fi as being strongly attached to emotional and memory associations. The following post is highly speculative (i.e. my own personal theorizing), but it might help others get some insight into how Fi works or come up with their own theories about Fi. But take it with a grain of salt.

    Just about everyone has experienced flashes of old memories associated with a certain smell or flavor. Let's say I lived at the beach in my childhood but later moved to the mountains. When I finally return to the beach decades later for the first time since childhood, my first exposure to the odor of the salt air will almost certainly bring back a flood of long-forgotten childhood memories.

    Researchers say that our sense of smell (and hence, our sense of taste with it) has the strongest power to bring back old memories because the wiring for smell is buried deepest and connects most directly to the core of the brain. Evolutionarily speaking, smell was the strongest and most accurate of the 5 senses for interacting with the world in most early mammals. Thus, the scent of a forgotten flower, the taste of a forgotten meal from another part of our life, the strong smell of hospital antiseptic or diesel fumes from heavy equipment, etc., has the power to bring old memories and experiences back vividly. Proust's classic novel "Remembrance of Things Past" begins with the phenomenon of childhood memories brought to the surface when the narrator has a cup of tea and a bite of a madeleine pastry while visiting his grandmother.

    Other senses (touch, hearing, and sight) are much weaker in terms of memory associations. They traditionally don't bring back full-fledged memories at first. They're more likely to bring back old emotions initially. That's because memories are best retained when they are tied to an emotion, and the emotion tends to come back first (vaguely and confusedly) when old associations are made through the weaker senses.

    Thus, let's say I'm walking around an empty museum and I listen to the echoing clatter of my steps, and I get a sense that I've heard that sound before sometime in the past. If I keep listening, I may even get a sense of foreboding and dreariness from the sound (i.e., emotional content appears). If I want to pursue the sensation further, I may keep walking and listening, speeding up and slowing down my steps, repeating the sounds and rhythm that seem to have the most "resonance," until I suddenly remember walking down an empty hospital corridor as a child, ill with some sickness and not really paying attention to my surroundings, but also vaguely dreading the unknown treatment that awaits me at the end of the corridor.

    IOW, I start with a vague sense of familiarity and then build to an emotion and then to a memory.

    I can't speak for everyone, but it seems to me that a lot of INFPs get entertainment from pursuing these kinds of old associations, emotions, and memories. From this, you get the stereotypes of infantile-acting INFPs trading in random scraps of old childhood memories, free associating with giddy whimsical jokes (a good way to mine the brain for random associations), and even re-reading children's books from their own childhood in the hopes of dredging up some old memories. Some INFPs assume that these old scraps of memories and associations must have had a certain mystical power (in the sense of a personal revelation) if they were able to return from nothingness after many decades, and so a minority of INFPs make a fetish out of chasing after childish whims and insisting that their long-lost childhood represents some kind of personal golden age.

    In a way there is a kind of hypochondria to it, in the sense of a hypochondriac seizing on and mapping out every little bodily ache and twinge in both dread and hope of finding something seriously wrong.

    On the other hand, using associations and memories is a fast and efficient way of analyzing and making decisions. It's how people get a "gut feeling" about something. If a certain experience has repeatedly left you with a bad feeling over time, then to a certain extent one can use that "bad feeling" as quick input for judging how best to react to a situation as it arises.

    But obviously INFPs should also realize the fallibility of "gut feelings," especially ones that go all the way back to childhood. The Ne of INFPs should be used to sort and analyze memory associations and compare them to the objective measures of the outside world; INFPs shouldn't uncritically accept childish fears and enthusiasms about external events to determine their personal values.

    Thinkers usually at least register the existence of strong emotions (disgust, hate, love) and probably register the rare flood of memories associated with a certain taste or smell. But they will probably dismiss outright the weaker emotional associations attached to touch, hearing, and sight. Fi people can dismiss them just as effectively. An Fi person may simply be too busy or occupied to pursue a weak emotional association that pops up while walking down the street; or, having pursued the association, he may determine that a childish memory or emotion that was dredged up is too old and simplistic to be of any use and dismiss the whole thing.

    But much as Thinkers like to analyze for the sake of analyzing, Fi people may dabble in old emotional associations for fun. Particularly ancient and vague emotional cues can be fun to unravel as mental exercise; and for the connoisseur, old emotions can come in a variety of "flavors." The recovery of an old childhood memory can yield a sense of surprise and nostalgia.

    Some Fi people may not bother to chase down old memories and may simply enjoy the interplay of emotions at the back of their consciousness when experiencing a particularly rich environment (one that has a lot of sensual cues to trigger associations). For many Fis, the emotions are the more interesting part; by comparison, the memories may involve work and may be much less interesting. When Park describes listening to music, I think she is describing an experience of enjoying the emotions triggered by the music without going into the past to determine what specific past experiences linked those emotions to those tones or percussion or style of music. (That's a perfectly acceptable use of Fi.)

    Furthermore, as they get adept at playing with emotional cues, Fi people can play around with the external emotional cues of others (body language, vocal cues, choices of words) or even extrapolate themselves into the emotional crises of others in order to see how they themselves would handle the situation.

    Also, becoming adept with emotions obviously gives Feelers an edge in communication skills. By ignoring emotional cues, Thinkers clearly put themselves at a disadvantage in that area.

    The danger for Fi people, of course, is that they will make a fetish of their internal emotional associations and never learn to sort and analyze their "gut feelings" in terms of objective value. They become solipsist and self-involved. They may disregard emotional cues from others as unimportant compared to their own personal emotional "revelations," and become selfish and self-contained.

    Fe people (Extroverted Feelers) are more attuned to emotional cues from others and presumably don't put as much stock in emotional associations generated from within. The danger for them is that they will become masterful at interpreting and manipulating the emotions of others but never really look inside for a personal experience of how those emotions "feel" to the recipient. Emotions will simply be a tool for organizing the people around them, without much consideration for how the people are actually feeling those emotions.

    Sensor Fis (ISFPs) seem to deal in personal associations that arise from sensation. When they engage in art, for example, the art seems to be about putting together different combinations of sights and tactile sensations in order to try to approximate some personal internal ideal; presumably the ideal is derived from some old experience or personal association and they are trying to externalize it in an idealized form. They often seem unable to describe the ideal or where it came from. They repeat an artistic process many times, apparently knowing only for a certainty that the results are closer or further from their ideal even though they are unable to describe the ideal or its meaning. (Note the similarity of this process to my earlier example of walking up and down a museum hallway trying to match the sound of my footfalls to an unknown memory.)

    Intuitive Fis (INFPs) deal in personal emotional associations. The old memories that are linked to the emotions, in fact, seem to be less important than the emotions themselves. The memories justify the emotions, but it's the emotions (the pain, the fear, the anger, the love, the sense of belonging) that really seem to be important to INFPs. INFPs probably can't enunciate what they hope to achieve with these emotional experiences; with no justification for their quest, they can take on the appearance and even the habits of emotional junkies. But given the nature of Intuition, I suspect INFPs would ideally like to understand where their fears and emotions first arose and then weave these emotional scraps and understandings into a kind of childhood emotional safety blanket. INFPs often hearken back to an idealized infancy of peace, tranquility and acceptance: a kind of pre-individuation personal Garden of Eden. INFPs often talk of a feeling of "innocence lost" and a quest to return to simpler times and merge themselves back into a larger, more comprehensive consciousness. Emotional associations seem to be the path for them.

    And from this last step, you get the INFP fascination with "human spirit." INFPs may ask what, in fact, constitutes humanity itself if not human emotions, and then chase emotions to their very roots and project how they could be formulated differently depending on environment and personal experience.

    But again, the usual cautions apply. Without proper use of Ne to filter the emotional cues and compare them to outside objective measures, it's all just an exercise in infantile solipsism. It's just navel-gazing. Frankly, only a few INFPs ever really manage to get it right and extrapolate properly from the personal to the universal.

  10. #30
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    I remember reading something that said INFP and ENTJ had a student-teacher relationship with one another... both feeling like the student of the other, and both being the teacher of the other or soemthing like that.

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